HL Deb 16 June 1976 vol 371 cc1255-7

2.39 p.m.

Baroness VICKERS

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether Britain is the only member of the European Economic Community to have introduced legislation to promote a compulsory closed shop.

Lord JACQUES

My Lords, so far as I am aware, no EEC country, including Britain, has introduced such legislation.

Baroness VICKERS

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether we are in violation of the Treaty of Rome? Would it not be possible for us to be taken before the European Court of Justice, as the decision to do so may already have been taken regarding the fees of overseas students?

Lord JACQUES

My Lords, so far as I am aware, there are no provisions in the Treaty of Rome or in the regulations, Directives, decisions or recommendations issued by the EEC which affect rights of association or organisation in trade unions.

Baroness EMMET of AM BERLEY

My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether legislation for a compulsory closed shop would not be working against both the Declaration for Human Rights by the United Nations and the European Com-munity?

Lord JACQUES

My Lords, first with regard to the European aspect, Article 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights gives everyone the right of freedom of association, including the specific right to form or join trade unions. It does not give any specific right not to be compelled to belong to an association, and I am advised that the Convention's authors deliberately excluded any such provisions when drafting it, because of difficulties it might pose for lawful closed shops.

The position concerning the United Nations is dealt with by Article 23(4). That Article gives a right to belong but not a right not to belong. The ILO position is dealt with in Convention No. 87. It gives workers the right to establish and join unions, but gives no right not to belong. In fact, a Motion was moved that such a right should be given, and the Motion was defeated.

Baroness ELLES

My Lords, would the Minister be kind enough to look at the International Covenant of Economic, Social and Cultural rights which the Government have just ratified? May I ask him please to study carefully the Article referring to the right to work without any impediment, obstacle or any other obstruction, to see whether that is in conformity with closed shop agreements? Would the noble Lord also confirm whether EEC nationals coming to this country will be obliged to join a trade union, contrary to employment relationships existing in other EEC countries, before they can get a job in a place of employment where there is a closed shop agreement?

Lord JACQUES

My Lords, so far as the first part of the noble Baroness's question is concerned, I am always pleased to oblige her. Concerning the second part of the question, I see no reason why somebody from an EEC country should be treated differently from a citizen of this country.

Baroness ELLES

My Lords, would the Minister kindly look at the draft Directive concerning employment relationships in which there is a clause—a draft clause admittedly—which impedes any obstacle to free employment, regardless of the national treatment?

Lord JACQUES

My Lords, again, I shall be pleased to oblige the noble Baroness.

Lord BLYTON

My Lords, is the Minister aware that it would be a serious calamity if we were taken to the European Court and closed shops were stopped? What would happen to the lawyers' closed shop, to the doctors' closed shop and the accountants' closed shop, regardless of the trade union closed shop?

Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLS

My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether we are the only member of the European Community where in certain parts of industry the closed shop is operating?

Lord JACQUES

My Lords, it depends on whether we are dealing with the practical or the theoretical position. If it is the practical position, I can easily answer the question. Belgium, Denmark, the Netherlands, Ireland and Italy in practice all have closed shop agreements or customs and practice agreements throughout various industries, particularly the docks, printing and ship repair.

Lord WYNNE-JONES

My Lords, may I ask whether your Lordships' House is regarded as a closed shop?

Lord LEATHERLAND

My Lords, would my noble friend agree that, since we passed the legislation dealing with closed shops, there has been a dramatic reduction in the number of days lost through industrial disputes and that the trade unions have adopted a far more statesmanlike attitude than ever before, as witness the decision of the Trades Union Congress today?

Lord JACQUES

My Lords, the facts are right, but I would attribute the reason to the whole of the Government's policy on industrial relations.