HL Deb 14 June 1976 vol 371 cc920-6

2.50 p.m.

The LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Development of Rural Wales Bill, has consented to place Her Royal Prerogative and interest, so far as they are affected by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.

My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill he now read a third time.

Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a— (The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Bill read 3a.

Clause 1 [Establishment and general function of Development Board for Rural Wales]:

The LORD CHANCELLORmoved Amendment No. 1:

Page 2, line 2, at end insert— ( ) Before making an order under subsection (2) or (3) above, the Secretary of State shall consult—

  1. (a) in the case of a proposal to make an order under subsection (2), the council of each 921 county and of each district any part of whose area is or, if the order is made, will he included in the area for which the Board is responsible;
  2. (b)in the case of a proposal to make an order under subsection (3), the council of each county and of each district any part of whose area is included in the area for which the Board is responsible;
  3. (c)such organisations as appear to the Secretary of State to be representative of local authorities in Wales; and
  4. (d)such other persons as appear to him to have an interest in the proposed change in the area for which the Board is responsible."

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is by way of response to representations that were made by the noble Lord, Lord Elton, and others during the Committee and Report stages of the Bill. Its effect is to require the Secretary of State before designating an additional area to be part of the Board's area, or before designating an area which is to cease to be part of the Board's area, to consult each county and district council any part of whose area is either already in the Board's area or, in the case of a proposal to extend the area, will be included in such area, and further to require him before designating under either subsection to consult organisations appearing to him to be representative of Welsh local authorities and such other bodies or persons as appear to him to be interested in the proposed change in the Board's area. I gave undertakings at the Report stage of the Bill to introduce this statutory requirement for consultation which the Secretary of State will now have to carry out, and I move accordingly that this Amendment be agreed to.

Lord ELTON

My Lords, your Lordships will recall that this is an Amendment which was asked for in substance at Second Reading, was asked for again in Committee and promised at Report stage. It is welcomed at Third Reading by your Lordships, probably on all sides of the House. I should like to acknowledge the support and help that we have had from the noble Lord, Lord Champion, in pursuing this issue.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2 [Duties of the Board.]:

The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 2:

Page 3, line 31, at end insert (" in the proposals.").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment which clarifies Clause 2(6)(b) to the effect that the Board shall before it prepares or submits proposals to the Secretary of State consult such other local authorities under the provisions of subsection (1)(b) and other bodies as appear to the Board to have an interest " in the proposals ". There is no change of substance. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3 [General Powers of the Board.]:

Lord ELTON moved Amendment No. 3:

Page 4, line 22, after (" powers ") insert (" to acquire or manage ").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, your Lordships will remember that, in the discussion on the Amendment which we carried on a Division at the Report stage, it was clearly our intention to control the power of the Secretary of State to acquire or manage agricultural land. It has since been drawn to our attention that the effect of the Amendment as it stands would go further than this intention by preventing not only the acquisition and management of land for which it was not intended to change the use but also the disposal thereof. Your Lordships may wonder how the Board may come to have agricultural land in its possession in order to dispose of it in view of the Bill as now drafted. The answer is that a large block of land in excess of the Board's requirements might be bought for the mutual convenience of the Board and the vendor, but only a proportion of it would be required for a changed use. The Board would then require. in order not to have to manage something it had no power to manage, to sell it back to the agricultural market but would he precluded from doing so by the fact that the Bill as it stands does not allow it to dispose of agricultural land unless it intends to change its use. We have therefore tabled an Amendment which restricts this limitation to the acquisition and management of land. The Board may not acquire or manage land unless it is its intention to change its use. It may dispose of land if it is not the intention to change its use from agricultural land or forestry. As that was clearly the intention of those who spoke and voted on the Amendment at the Report stage, I hope that your Lordships will see fit to accept this Amendment. I beg to move.

The LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, the Government accept that this Amendment to some extent improves Clause (3)(2) which was inserted in the Bill after a Division and against the opposition of the Government. However, while this Amendment removes one objection to subsection 3(2), as it now stands, there are still other serious objections to it. It will remain defective inasmuch as it is incompatible with the severance provisions of Clause 8(2) of the Compulsory Purchase Act 1965 which provides some protection to landowners particularly owners of agricultural land with whom the noble Lord was rightly principally, concerned. Those provisions are applied to the Board by Clause 5(4) of the Bill. They give a vendor the right to require an acquiring authority in certain circumstances to purchase more land than it requires, if the part left to the vendor is of no further use to him. Under these provisions, the Board could be required to acquire a small parcel of agricultural land which it does not wish to develop, or indeed may not be allowed to develop if it happens to be outside the designated area of a new town.

Furthermore, the provision will impede effective new town development by preventing the Board from acquiring land, either compulsorily or by agreement, until its development proposals have been approved or at least formulated in detail. This is contrary to the established practice whereby new town corporations acquire land in advance of the submission of detailed development proposals. Because of the time taken in the process of land acquisition, new town corporations are encouraged to plan a steady programme of acquisitions geared to their general programme of development, so that they may be sure of obtaining possession of land ahead of their need for that land. Clause 3(2) prevents the Board from following this practice, if I interpret its meaning correctly, although I agree that the phraseology, " proposes to change the use of land " is vague and lacking in precision. But I think it would have the effect of hampering new town development.

Another objection to Clause 3(2) is that it could prevent an acquisition by agreement in a case where a vendor was prepared to sell all of a parcel of land but not just the part that the Board wished to develop. Cases of that kind do occur when an acquiring authority requires the greater part, but not all, of a piece of land. It is the normal practice in cases of that kind for acquiring authorities to agree to buy all the land and the Government believe this is a good practice which it is wrong to prejudice. But subsection (2) will prevent the Board from buying by agreement such land, if it is agricultural or forestry land, unless it changes the use of the whole piece of land, which it may not wish or may not be empowered to do.

There are other objections to the subsection but enough has been said to make it clear why it is not acceptable to the Government. I am not proposing to invite my noble friends to divide on this Amendment, as it at least makes the unacceptable a little more palatable or a little less unacceptable. I think it right to make it clear that it is the Government's intention in another place to seek, as we say, to remedy the matter.

I doubt whether it is necessary for me to repeat again that it is not intended that the Board should engage in farming or horticultural activities other than those which are incidental to its functions of new town development and light industrial development, but perhaps it is right to reiterate that assurance once again.

Lord ELTON

My Lords, I think perhaps it might not be proper for me to reply at length to the noble and learned Lord, since the arguments will have to be deployed again in another place, as he has said. in fact, I would be prepared to question the nobleand learned Lord's interpretation, but I welcome his acceptance of this, even though he intends it to be only a temporary acceptance.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

3.1 p.m.

The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 4:

Page 4, line 34, at end insert— (" or, (c) to carry on any undertaking or business,").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, the effect of this Amendment would be to require the Board to secure the consent of the Secretary of State before carrying on any undertaking or business. It was an Amendment which was suggested by the noble Lords, Lord Elton and Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, at Report stage. The basis of it was the suggestion that the exercise by the Board of the power to undertake a business should be subject to the consent of the Secretary of State. The requirement for the Board to obtain the consent of the Secretary of State before exercising its power to undertake a business would also include the requirement to obtain consent to undertake agricultural or farming businesses. So this Amendment enables the Secretary of State to enforce the assurances I have already given that it is not intended that the Board should undertake farming activities, except as a temporary measure and incidental to its main development functions. The Amendment will strengthen the power of the Secretary of State to control the Board's activities in a particularly sensitive area. I beg to move.

Lord ELTON

My Lords, again, I am glad to welcome on behalf of my noble friends the concession made by Her Majesty's Government in t his direction.

On Question. Amendment agreed to.

The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 5:

Page 4, line 37, after (" finance " insert (" under subsection (1)(d) above ").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment inserted to clarify that the approval of the Treasury is specifically required for the provision of finance under subsection (1) (d) of the Bill. There is no change of substance. I beg to move.

On Question. Amendment agreed to.

Amendment (privilege) made.

The LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass.

Moved, that the Bill do now pass.— (The Lord Chancellor.)

Lord ELTON

My Lords, I should like to take this opportunity to thank not only my noble friend Lord Lyell, who has worked hard and at short notice on the Bill, but also the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, together with his retinue of assistants, for having conducted our business on this Bill in a most helpful manner. I am sure the Bill has improved since it came to your Lordships' Chamber, and possibly in that respect it is even better than the noble and learned Lord would agree. I am grateful to all those who have taken part in our deliberations on this Bill.

The LORD CHANCELLOR

For my part, I am most grateful for those kindly words and for the noble Lords who have speeded the process of the Bill and have, with one exception, to my mind improved it. I include the noble Lords, Lord Elton and Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, together with my noble friend Lord Champion, who " championed"—if that is a permissible word to use in the circumstances: no doubt it has been used a thousand times—the county councils. I am most grateful.

On Question, Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.