HL Deb 29 July 1976 vol 373 cc1603-11

5.47 p.m.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER (Baroness Wootton of Abinger)

My Lords, I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified her Royal Assent to the following Acts:

WEIGHTS AND MEASURES

ACT 1963 (BREAD) ORDER 1976

WEIGHTS AND MEASURES

ACT 1963 (TEA) ORDER 1976

WEIGHTS AND MEASURES

(POTATOES) (EXEMPTION) ORDER 1976

WEIGHTS AND MEASURES

(FLOUR AND OAT PRODUCTS)

(EXEMPTION) ORDER 1976

5.48 p.m.

Lord ORAM rose to move:

That the draft Weights and Measures Act 1963 (Bread) Order 1976, laid before the House on 19th July, be approved:

That the draft Weights and Measures Act 1963 (Tea) Order 1976, laid before the House on 19th July, be approved;

That the draft Weights and Measures (Potatoes) (Exemption) Order 1976, laid before the House on 19th July, be approved;

That the draft Weights and Measures (Flour and Oat Products) (Exemption) Order 1976, laid before the House on 19th July, be approved.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, with permission I beg to move en bloc the four Weights and Measures Orders standing in my name. As the Weights and Measures, et cetera (No. 2) Bill has so recently completed its passage through this House, providing an opportunity for Members to debate the issue in some depth, I feel sure that noble Lords will not wish to re-embark this afternoon on matters of principle. None of the orders now before the House raises new issues. They are all in line with the policy of successive Governments and of industry to move progressively towards the adoption of the metric system, a policy which the House has approved.

Before dealing with the orders themselves, I should first like to refer to an obligation which will arise on 21st April 1978 under the Units of Measurements Directive. From that point we shall not be able to discriminate against metric units of measurement. In practical terms, this means goods made or packed in metric units. It is therefore essential for us to have made it permissible by then for all goods which at present may only be pre-packed in prescribed Imperial quantities to be pre-packed also in metric units. Your Lordships will see from the proposed effective dates on two of the orders that we shall only just be meeting that deadline.

The orders on bread and tea are metrication orders containing provisions with which noble Lords will already be quite familiar. The order on bread will enable a simple conversion to be made from the present l4oz. loaf—the one we normally refer to as "small"—to 400 grammes and the 28oz. or "large" loaf to 800 grammes. The difference is an extra 4 grammes and 8 grammes respectively—a rise of just 1 per cent. The Government, supported by industry and consumers, consider this "soft" conversion preferable to adopting round metric figures of 500 grammes and 1 kilogramme. We do so for two reasons. First, we are dealing with a commodity produced almost exclusively to cater for British tastes and whose sales are accordingly restricted to the home market. Secondly, the conversion to the larger sizes would cost the baking industry an inordinate amount of money which, added to the cost of loaves 26 per cent. larger than the present ones, would mean an unjustifiable rise in price. The order on tea is similar to most of the metrication orders the House has already approved in that the metric quantities to be permitted are based on the "tripartite" range agreed in 1969 between the United Kingdom, Germany and France for use wherever practicable. The ¼lb. and ½lb. packets will become 125 grammes and 250 grammes respectively, an increase in size of about 10 per cent. The order makes it clear, which the Act at present does not, that tea in tea bags is covered by the same provisions.

The two orders on flour and oat products and on potatoes are designed to enable industry to metricate large packs. Both are to come into operation in August this year. At present these products may be prepacked in quantities above 1½lb. in multiples of 1lb. Parliament has already approved comprehensive orders metricating flour and flour products which come into operation in 1977. The operative dates of those orders were set in accordance with the wishes of industry—who unfortunately overlooked the fact that their large wholesale packs, which they planned to metricate this year, were also sometimes sold by retail. In particular the 70 lb. pack of high extraction flour, which is to be converted to 32 kilogrammes, is bought by immigrants for making chupattis. The exemption order has the effect of advancing the operative date of certain provisions included in the orders already made. The Department is not yet in a position to lay a comprehensive order on potatoes.

However, as agriculture is going metric this year and as the industry wishes to be able to put up this year's main crop of potatoes in 25 kilogramme packs, which will be significant in both the wholesale and retail markets, we must make such packs lawful. Informal consultations will continue with a view to laying before the House at a later date a comprehensive order on potatoes which will be compatible with the exemption order. The EEC has not yet adopted any legislation on the products covered by these four orders. Draft Directives exist on wheat and rye flour and on bread; tea and oat products are likely to be included in a draft optional directive which will prescribe standard quantities for certain prepacked products. The provisions in the order now before the House are compatible with the EEC' proposals as they stand, although we may have to amplify the provisions for bread if and when that Directive is adopted.

We are anxious to see a smooth and efficient transition to metric in each case. As I have explained, industry is ready to go on flour, oats and potatoes so those conversions should not take long. The baking industry expects to convert completely to the new size loaves over one week-end once all bakeries have had their weighing machines modified. The precise date will be a matter for further discussion between the Department and industry.

Things are not so simple with tea. We are allowing the best part of two years for the machinery manufacturer—there is only one in the country making these machines—to complete all the necessary preparatory work before the order comes into operation. But the conversion is likely to take as much as five years to complete after that. We shall be keeping a close watch on the progress of this conversion with a view to deciding what further measures, if any, are necessary to protect the consumer. My Lords, it will, I think, be clear that we could not in this case seek an early cut-off date for the use of imperial measures which the powers under the Weights and Measures etc. (No. 2) Bill would enable us to do. Consumers are therefore likely to see imperially-marked packets of tea for some time to come.

As the 1975 Marking Regulations come into effect for each of these products they will be required to be dual marked in both metric and imperial and the metric packs will have to be marked with the words METRIC PACK in capital letters. This will not apply to bread as it is not weight marked, which is why we want to ensure that there is a quick conversion over one week-end.

And now a word or two on prices. Although the price of new packs of flour, oats and potatoes must reflect the actual amounts in them, the unit prices of these goods—the price per pound or kilogram—will not be affected. I should perhaps mention with regard to flour—but this is in no way connected with metrication—that rising wheat prices will soon have to be reflected in higher prices for bulk flour which will in turn be reflected in the price of flour in the shops. This has already received some publicity in the media. But as I say, this does not arise out of the proposals which we are now considering.

As to bread, the new metric loaves when they appear in 1978, will, initially at least, cost the same as their imperial predecessors, the cost of the 1 per cent. extra dough being absorbed by the industry. In due course we can expect, and it would only be fair, that the industry will include the total cost of making the new loaves in any application they may decide to make for a rise in price.

Finally, as to tea: as with the other products the prices of the new packs of tea will have to reflect the quantity in them. Tea is the only commodity in these orders for which there are significant conversion costs. Even so, when related to the turnover of the industry they are comparatively small and spread over several years, and therefore they are unlikely to have a tangible effect on the retail price per packet. Proposals in these orders have been widely accepted and welcomed by industry, consumers, enforcement authorities and the distributive trades. I therefore have confidence in commending them to your Lordships. I beg to move.

6 p.m.

Lord REDESDALE

My Lords, as always we are indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Oram, for giving us such a detailed and very clear explanation of these four orders. Simple as they are, it obviously involves quite a lot of detail. I will be very brief because in fact, on these Benches we welcome all four orders.

My Lords, I was interested in the question of bread. I had not realised that it was not weight marked. It had not occurred to me. I appreciated that the 400 gramme size, and the 800, would comply with the 14-oz. and 28-oz., but I was not aware of that one point, and take the explanation of the noble Lord. We also welcome this because it will not mean any re-equipping of the bakeries, with only 1 per cent. extra dough. January 1978 is a sensible date, because it gives enough time, and will give a chance of integrating the EEC regulations.

On the question of tea, we welcome this order. The date gives the industry time to make the conversions, which will be expensive and a lengthy business for the packers. With regard to potatoes, the industry welcomes this order. This is happening almost immediately. I know they welcome it because they have been waiting to get on with printing packs. Obviously it is very sensible to have left out the prepack, because this will require a fair amount of further discussion before that particular problem can be sorted out. But the packs that are covered obviously can be put in hand straight away.

On the question of flour, the milling industry have co-operated fully on this, and have always had a target date of 2nd August, so this presents no problem. As for the others, we welcome the orders and hope to see them through. As we are talking about weights and measures, it would be nice on this occasion not to have another Second Reading debate.

6.3 p.m.

Baroness PHILLIPS

My Lords, taking up the point of the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, he will not have another Second Reading debate, but the Minister will be disappointed if I do not say something. It is always interesting to be the odd person out. Since the industry welcomes it, and all the other consumers welcome it, everybody welcomes it, I can perhaps ask one or two questions, to which I am sure the Minister will have the answer.

My Lords, in the first place, there is a difference in the cut-off dates, the point at which the orders come into operation, as the Minister explained. I am not quite clear why potatoes seem to have been chosen to be first, since the noble Lord made the point that bread was restricted to the home market, which is reassuring, because I am still waiting to receive the information for which I asked during the passage of the Bill, to know which foods we actually export. I have always understood we were an importing country in relation to food. Now we have been told categorically that we do not export bread, which is restricted to the home market, yet potatoes are to be dealt with before this, so I assume that we have so many potatoes that we can export them. This may or may not be good news. I would just like to know, appropos the price, bread is a commodity covered by the price freeze, as the Minister will know. There has to be one loaf held to a certain price.

I assume this arrangement will continue because otherwise there will be a sudden increase which the consumers will un-doubtedly associate, whichever way we put it, with the metric pack. I still feel that this is something done merely to be in line with the EEC. I do not think it makes the slightest improvement in the shopping facilities of the British housewife. However, I recognise that I am a voice crying in the wilderness, which does not bother me, and I will go on doing it at each introduction of each stage of metrication.

6.5 p.m.

Lord ORAM

My Lords, I should like to thank both the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, and my noble friend behind me for their speeches, one of welcome and one of doubt. In reply to the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, I need say no more than that he, at each point I think, reinforced the case which I was endeavouring to put forward in my speech, and I am glad that was so.

I should have been a little surprised and indeed disappointed if my noble friend had not engaged in discussion on these matters, because I recognise her deep interest in them. She displayed that when we were dealing with the Weights and Measures Bill recently. I hope I can explain the one or two points that she has asked about. She asks why the date in relation to potatoes is so much earlier than that relating to bread and tea. The point here is that the Order dealing with potatoes does a different thing from those orders dealing with tea and flour. The metrication orders in relation to potatoes have already been passed by Parliament, and it is a question of the date at which this comes into operation.

As I attempted to explain, the industry is anxious this year, indeed two days from now, lawfully to be able to market metric packs in the larger quantities, whereas the order that was passed would prevent them from doing this until, I think, 11 months' time. So we are needing to take that earlier date in relation to potatoes for that reason, and something similar applies in the case of flour.

On the point about price, I explained earlier that these metrication orders in themselves have no effect on prices. When my noble friend asks about bread prices under the present arrangements for fixing prices through recommendations from the Price Commission and so on, I can assure her that this order has no effect on those arrangements. Of course, prices will increase, if subsidies are withdrawn, in accordance with market conditions after application to the Price Commission and so on. That is a different matter. But in relation to what we are considering this evening there is no effect upon the prices.

Her final point was that this is simply to bring us into line with the EEC. Well, we do, of course, because we are members of the EEC, need to ensure that any legislation that we pass is in conformity with our obligations to the EEC. But if she is suggesting that our programme of metrication is solely in order to conform with the EEC, then, as I said when we were debating the Bill recently before the House, that is not so. I believe that there is a case for metrication quite apart from our membership of the EEC, and we would have gone ahead with it irrespective of our membership. But since we are members, and since we have a programme of metrication, then, of course, we do have to make sure that both sets of legislation are in conformity one with another. My Lords, with those explanations, which I hope are adequate, I beg to commend the four orders.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Lord STRABOLGI

My Lords, with the leave of the House, may I, on behalf of my noble friends, wish all noble Lords a pleasant and restful Recess.

Lord NEWALL

My Lords, may I, on behalf of noble Lords on this side of the House, whether here in spirit or in body, reciprocate and wish all noble Lords opposite a good holiday, considering that we are coming back in late September for a very hard Session.