TORTURE OF PRISONERS (Hansard, 27 July 1976)

§ Lord BROCKWAY
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The MINISTER of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)
My Lords, implementation of the Covenant on Civil and Political Rights will be supervised by the Committee on Human Rights which will be formed by election on 20th September. It is our firm intention to do all we can to ensure that the Covenant will be implemented effectively and that the process of implementation will be started without undue delay. To this end we wish to see the formation of a strong and impartial committee capable of making the Covenant an effective instrument against torture and other violations of human rights.

§ Lord BROCKWAY
My Lords, while appreciating that Answer, may I ask the Minister whether he can say, first, if it is likely that the United Kingdom will be represented on the United Nations Human Rights Committee? Secondly, will he say, if we are so represented, whether we shall press for investigation either directly, as on the European model, or through the International Red Cross?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, Sir Vincent Evans, the former Foreign and Commonwealth Office legal 1170 adviser, the principal legal adviser to the Secretary of State and an expert on the Covenant and other aspects of the international protection of human rights, has agreed to be the British nominee for this committee. We naturally hope that he will succeed in the elections which will be held on 20th September. As to the second supplementary question which my noble friend put to me, I do not rule out, and I am sure that Sir Vincent, if he is successful in the election, will not rule out, the two possibilities which my noble friend has put to us this afternoon.

§ Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEY
My Lords, while thanking the Minister for that answer, may I ask whether he is aware that those of us who have supported the United Nations, having been there, and the Red Cross in their humanitarian and international efforts, really cannot understand why, on this particular question which is of supreme importance and interest to everybody, the United Nations could not approach the Red Cross, who I am quite sure would respond, with a view to having some immediate attention given to this problem?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness to the extent that the committee which will be set up under these arrangements will of course be free to consider means whereby the ICRC and any other organisation—one can think of a number of others—may be usefully engaged in the process of implementing the Covenant. I do not think it is possible for any member country, including our own, to overstrain its locus standi to the extent of pressing this point unduly, but I agree with the noble Baroness that the Committee is perfectly free to consider the way in which the ICRC and other organisations can be used, by agreement, to promote the objectives of the Covenant.

Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON
My Lords, in the light of all our experience, and particularly of our recent experience, does the Minister seriously envisage the possibility of the United Nations appointing an impartial committee?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
Yes, my Lords.

§ Baroness ELLES
My Lords, would the Minister encourage our nominee, if he is elected, to get as many individual petitions as possible under the optional protocol, as that might be the only way, in fact, of dealing with this particular problem and of avoiding political backlashes by certain political Parties in various States?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
Yes, indeed, my Lords. Assuming, of course, that Sir Vincent is in fact elected—and I am sure the noble Baroness and I would agree that, although he would be a nominee of this country, he would not represent this country—it would be a very strong suggestion from us that for the general purposes of the committee this would be a very good addition indeed. I am quite sure that Sir Vincent Evans, backed by the view of Her Majesty's Government, would have very much in mind what the noble Baroness has said.

§ Lord GEORGE-BROWN
My Lords, may I raise a point? Sir Vincent Evans I know very well—a reason, possibly, to put in a black ball—but since the present Government, a member of which is the Minister of State, who, alas!, as Minister of State when I was Secretary of State—

Several noble Lords
Question!

§ Lord GEORGE-BROWN
The Minister may like to recall that the present Government in this country are not really paying much regard for the rights of individuals—

Several noble Lords
Question!

§ Lord GEORGE-BROWN
My Lords, every question needs a preamble.

Several noble Lords
No!

§ Lord GEORGE-BROWN
My Lords, would the Minister please convey this question to the present Secretary of State? Since we do not ourselves regard the rights of individuals as pre-emptive, how is Sir Vincent Evans going to persuade this committee, if he ever gets elected?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, Sir Vincent Evans, if he is elected, will have at least as much power in the committee to persuade it on the appropriate modalities and decisions as any other member—rather more, I think, for he 1172 is internationally regarded as an outstanding expert on this type of question. I regret to note my noble friend's reference to our otherwise constructive co-operation at the Foreign Office. I restrain the temptation to translate his personal remark into one somewhat as follows: that he was Secretary of State, alas! when I was Minister of State.

§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONE
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that Sir Vincent Evans is very highly regarded on this side of the House and in public? Is he also aware that, whatever our political differences may be, we have great respect and affection for the Minister himself?

§ Lord BROCKWAY
My Lords, while we all hope that the British nominee will be elected, could the Minister tell us something about the method of election to this committee: how many candidates there are, and who elect them?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, I should be very glad to impart this information to my noble friend if he would put down a separate Question. It is a very detailed answer that I have in mind to that question.

§ Lord SLATER
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that a number of questions have been asked in regard to this issue, and that the nominee who has been mentioned—he has not yet been elected, so we understand from the reply from the Minister—whoever he may be, shall have to take responsibility on that committee and to speak as an individual on the committee? Are we going to place him in shackles before he goes into the committee room to debate and discuss the major issues before that committee, which will have to arrive at some form of decision?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
That, my Lords, would be exactly the position.

§ Lord CARADON
My Lords, would my noble friend agree that this is a much wider question than one of instructions to be given to a member of our committee, and that the essential question is that already raised; that is, the capacity of the United Nations to provide that there should be investigation for an established 1173 complaint from an individual as there is in Europe at the moment? Should it not be that our Government in this vital matter, with the evil of torture spreading through the world, should be prepared to take the lead on the main question of principle?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
Yes, my Lords, I entirely agree that in so far as it is possible for the Member States to take an initiative on this matter above all others, there is much force in what my noble friend has said. I shall be conveying what he has said to the Secretary of State. If we are fortunate to have this eminent international jurist on the committee, I think that we shall be the better positioned perhaps to promote the objects which my noble friends have in mind.

§ Baroness ELLES
My Lords, despite the sentiments which the Minister has expressed—sentiments which, I am sure, are shared by the whole House—would he kindly confirm that the election of Sir Vincent Evans, if he succeeds, will be entirely in his own individual capacity and that he will not be under instructions from any Government?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
Exactly, my Lords. It is a United Kingdom contribution in the form of, as I have said, an eminent jurist, one of great experience and great sympathy in these matters. We are very fortunate to be able to put forward his name. We recognise, of course, that although his background will be the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office, nevertheless he will act, as the noble Baroness has said, as a general member of this committee. Knowing that his background is so impeccable, we shall be completely satisfied if he acts in that capacity.