§ 2.45 p.m.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will propose that a Special Session of the General Assembly of the United Nations should be held to recommend measures to end the suppression of freedom of thought and the non-violent advocacy of political opinion.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)My Lords, we shall certainly keep this suggestion under review. We should need to he sure that such a proposal would receive sufficient support, so that the very valuable aims which the noble Lord has in mind would in fact be promoted rather than retarded.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. May I ask him whether he agrees that the greatest deterioration in human relations all over the world since the last war has been the persecution of opinion? Is it not the case that not only dissidents in the Soviet Union but hundreds of thousands of people in Indonesia, India, Uganda, South Africa, Chile, Uruguay and Brazil are being imprisoned for their political opinions? Therefore, is it not desirable that internationally the British Government should make a stand to end this persecution?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, yes, indeed; I think that we would all agree with what my noble friend has just said, especially with the even-handed way in which he has approached this matter. I do not need to remind my noble friend that the International Covenant on Human Rights, if implemented by the countries he has named, as it is by this and like-minded countries, would cover the ground he is so anxious to see improved.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, with great respect to my noble friend Lord Brockway, does not this Question show an extraordinary ignorance of the 7 General Assembly and its resolutions and procedures? Are not the two implications behind his Question—on the one hand, that the United Nations is the seat of World Government and, on the other, that it is the stronghold of divine wisdom —an insult to one's intelligence? May I add that it would be better for people like my noble friend to be conscripted and sent to the General Assembly of the United Nations for three months every year for five years running, as I did, so as to learn something about what is happening?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, my noble friend Lady Gaitskell speaks from passionate experience—at least of the United Nations, if not of my noble friend Lord Brockway. I think we must take a good look in perspective at the possibilities and the deficiencies of the United Nations. It is the only world authority which we have and it behoves us to use its capacities with considerable thought and with as much expertise and foresight as we can muster. Indeed, from time to time this is perfectly possible. Of course, after a mere 30 years of life the United Nations cannot instantly settle all these worldwide questions. Mankind has been at it for a few thousand years without much success.
§ Lord PANNELLMy Lords, is it not rather odd that people should be so selective in their condemnation or their enthusiasm? To the long list of names of offending countries which was given by the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, could we not add the names of almost all of the countries in Eastern Europe?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSYes, my Lords, unfortunately we can. No country is wholly blameless in this matter: that is why I commended my noble friend Lord Brockway, as I do now my noble friend Lord Pannell, for being so evenhanded in their blame and their praise.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, reverting to the reply to my second question, may I ask the Minister this, constructively: is it not the case that most countries have accepted the International Convention on Civil and Political Rights which says:
Everyone shall have the right to hold opinions without interference.Would it not therefore be quite appropriate for the United Nations to ask the 8 Human Rights Commission to make an investigation into this situation and to make proposals?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, it is perfectly open for the noble Lord or for anybody else to advance this suggestion. All I have said—and I think I carried all sides of the House with me—is that, when we make these very large proposals in New York, we must be careful that we have thought them out carefully and that we are reasonably assured of the requisite amount of support. I do not want to quote invidious recent comparisons, but we are all aware of a move somewhat in this direction last year by one of our friends and allies which really left the situation rather worse than it was before.
Lord JANNERMy Lords, in view of the farcical situation which has now arisen in respect of the United Nations and which is well known to every Member of this House, as well as to every person who thinks, is it not time that some kind of arrangement should be made between civilised nations whereby they can come together to try to solve the many problems which they understand on moral grounds, and not be forced into accepting serious and, in many cases, murderous ideas put forward in the United Nations at present?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, my noble friend, more than anybody, would agree with me that any attempt to exclude from the membership of the United Nations any member country on the ground of varying interpretations of its civilisation would indeed do nothing to help in this situation. I think we could agree that a Special Session—and here I accept that my noble friend has a constructive proposal to make—is a procedure in the United Nations which, after due thought and proper preparation, could usefully be engaged in. Her Majesty's Government take the view that certainly at this moment we could not proceed with any certainty of obtaining the right amount of support leading to anything like the results that my noble friend and I should like to achieve, that is, that we should at this moment succeed. Therefore, a little more time should elapse during which this procedure should be kept under review until it seems likely to succeed.