NORTHERN IRELAND ACT 1974 (INTERIM PERIOD EXTENSION) ORDER 1976

HL Deb 06 July 1976 vol 372 cc1173-8

4.17 p.m.

Lord DONALDSON of KINGS-BRIDGE rose to move, That the draft Northern Ireland (Interim Period Extension) Order 1976. laid before the House on 27th May, be approved. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move this order. As noble Lords will recall, the arrangements for direct rule under the Northern Ireland Act 1974 are renewable for a maximum of one year at a time. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has said on a number of occasions that at present there is no alternative to continuing Direct Rule. I am, therefore, seeking the approval of the House this afternoon to an order extending the current arrangements for Direct Rule for another year from 16th July.

However, as my right honourable friend made clear in another place on 2nd July, the Government's long-term aim is to see a devolved system of government estab lished in Northern Ireland which would enjoy widespread support across the community. Unfortunately, the Convention was unable to produce a constitutional solution which commanded sufficiently widespread public acceptance. However, the search for an acceptable solution goes on. It would not be right for the Government to comment on the talks currently taking place between the Official Unionist Party and the Social Democratic and Labour Party, but, as my right honourable friend has explained, the Government are always ready to entertain constructive and responsible ideas from those in Northern Ireland who are prepared to work together for Northern Ireland. For the present, however, Direct Rule will continue and the Government have been considering whether any changes should he made in the procedures.

The Secretary of State outlined on 2nd July a number of proposals for improving Direct Rule, including removing the limitation in Standing Orders on the number of meetings of the Northern Ireland Committee which may be held in a Session in another place, thus providing greater opportunity for debate on Northern Ireland matters. The Government propose to accept in principle the suggestion that we should more frequently apply Great Britain Bills to Northern Ireland. There are, of course, some areas of change in Northern Ireland which will require a full Bill in Parliament. The Fair Employment Bill provides an example of this. We shall continue to introduce legislation in this way when it concerns matters which have traditionally been dealt with by legislation in Parliament, rather than by devolved legislation in Northern Ireland. I have outlined briefly the Government's position on the main constitutional and political issues with which we are currently concerned, including the need to continue the existing Direct Rule arrangements. I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft Northern Ireland Act 1974 (Interim Period Extension) Order 1976, laid before the House on 27th May, be approved.—(Lord Donaldson of Kings-bridge.)

4.20 p.m.

Lord BELSTEAD

My Lords, it is an objective that is shared on all sides of the House that devolved Government should be restored to Northern Ireland as soon as possible, for not only is it natural that people in Northern Ireland should wish to administer their own education, commerce and social services, but the shortcomings of taking all Northern Ireland legislation through Parliament at West-minister whenever there is a necessity for an order, or anything of that kind, become increasingly obvious. Orders covering a wide variety of Northern Ireland affairs appear before this House without any real opportunity for the consideration which they deserve; and because they are orders they are, of course, not open to amendment—and in saying this I am in no way criticising the Government.

Some orders which the House has taken recently have been concerned with major legislation. Indeed, I believe I am right in claiming that the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments has reported that certain Northern Ireland orders are in reality primary legislation. I therefore welcome the Government's proposals for improving the scrutiny and debate of Northern Ireland orders in another place, which I understand from what the noble Lord has said this afternoon will include debating some orders in draft in the Northern Ireland Committee in the House of Commons, which was set up there some months ago. In this House, of course, we are not restricted as to the time which we may take on any one order, but I would have thought that it would be of great assistance if, when an order is published as draft proposals and is going to be debated in the Northern Ireland Committee in another place, the same draft could be made available simultaneously in the Printed Paper Office in your Lordships' House; and I should like to ask the noble Lord if he could perhaps take that suggestion away and possibly give me an answer in writing in the future.

It is disappointing that the Government have as yet no proposals for trying to restart the political processes in Northern Ireland. In both Houses the Opposition have suggested that some form of advisory committee to the Secretary of State, with a wider remit than the economic council which exists at the moment, might involve people in Northern Ireland in their own legislation and might at the same time act as a vehicle for the political process within the Province to restart. I am aware that the Secretary of State is not attracted by this idea, and we must hope that the current discussions between the Official Unionists and the SDLP will bring forward some basis for further political understanding. In voicing the wish that there should be closer links between the Secretary of State and Northern Ireland politicians, may I hasten to say that I am in no way criticising the advice which is given to the Government by the Civil Service. Indeed, I should like to take this opportunity to express appreciation for the work which has been done by the retiring head of the Northern Ireland Civil Service, Sir David Holden, and to give my best wishes to his successor, Mr. Robert Kidd.

In another place when this roder was going through the Secretary of State told the House of Commons that the Government arc expecting very soon the results of the wide-ranging review of economic and industrial strategy which the Secretary of State commissioned some time ago. This is something which, from these Benches, I think I can claim we have urged for over a year, and I therefore welcome this step. Of course, it is true that nothing could contribute better to the future economic prosperity of Ulster than a cessation of violence, which would encourage new industry to come into the Province; but if the terrible level of unemployment—and it rises to something like 25 per cent., I believe, in some areas—in Northern Ireland is to be reduced, surely it is the existing industries of the Province which must prosper and develop.

In February, I had the opportunity to visit Harland and Wolff, and two factors appeared to me to be clear. The first was that the number of jobs which are dependent upon Harland and Wolff extends far beyond the limits of the shipyard. Indeed, I was told that, of those working at the yard, three times the number are in one way or another dependent upon the continuation of shipbuilding in Belfast. The second factor which seemed to be clear was that the shipbuilding recession and the former concentration of Harland and Wolff upon the building of super-tankers had now placed the yard in a very critical position. We shall be looking with very great care at the report when it is published to find out what strategy the Government may be able to adopt towards Northern Ireland's traditional industries. Do not let us forget that engineering work in Northern Ireland achieves a very high level of quality, as the production and the recent sales of Short Brothers' new aircraft demonstrate, and any support which can be given to the traditional industries in Northern Ireland is to give support to work of a very high order.

So I support the passing of this order, but on this occasion the Government must surely expect to be asked to indicate their hopes for the timing of constitutional proposals for the future. During the next Session the Government apparently intend to legislate for devolution to Scotland and Wales. Where does Northern Ireland stand so far as the Parliamentary timetable is concerned? Following the Convention, the Secretary of State has not pushed for any constitutional initiatives, and I acknowledge that he has very probably been wise in this; but that sort of policy may not accord with the Government's general policy during the next Parliamentary Session. Ministers must have given considerable thought to the timing of this problem, and I hope that, if not today at least in the reasonably near future, the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, will be able to reveal to the House the way in which the Government are thinking about this problem.

4.27 p.m.

Lord DONALDSON of KINGS-BRIDGE

My Lords, I must begin by failing to fulfil the noble Lord's expectations expressed at the end of his speech. I have nothing to add to what has already been said. My right honourable friend feels that he has simply got to hold the fort for the moment, and he does not feel that at this time there is anything he can seize hold of in order to provide the kind of solution for which we are all looking. He does not wish to comment, as I said in my speech, on what is going on because he is not a party to it. If, as a result of what is going on, anything comes to him, he will look at it most closely. So I am afraid the noble Lord is unable to extract anything further than that from me.

As regards the simultaneous submission of draft orders in another place and here, I thought this already occurred. If it does not, there is not the slightest reason that I can see why it should not. I will investigate the matter, but I think that it is probably already occurring. I think your Lordships will find that the draft order is available in the Printed Paper Office from the moment it is laid in Parliament, and therefore no extra action needs to be taken, but I will check on that. The noble Lord is quite right in saying that, though his Party and colleagues have urged on the Secretary of State the formation of an advisory committee, the Secretary of State resists this. He feels that when you know exactly how people are going to vote it is probably not very helpful collectively to have their advice—you can take it individually because there is no question of an advisory committee of the kind that would be concerned here being anything other than strictly political in the sense of Northern Ireland.

I was most grateful and pleased that the noble Lord paid tribute to Sir David Holden and to Bob Kidd, who is succeeding him as the head of the Northern Ireland Civil Service. I have worked with them for a number of years and regard them both as friends. I think we were very lucky to have had Sir David, and also very lucky to have Bob Kidd to follow him. I think the morale in the Northern Ireland Civil Service, which is sometimes said to be low, is not in the least low. I think it is a very strong and vigorous branch of the Civil Service, and I certainly found nothing but pleasure and effectiveness in working with it.

My Lords, I think I will not comment on Harland and Wolff. I was in Oslo a week or two ago talking to Norwegian shipowners, and they have an enormous admiration for the yard and its capabilities. But they are in the same position as we are, that we are all equipped to build something which for the moment is not required. This is a difficult matter. I am grateful to the noble Lord for recommending to the House that this order be agreed to.

On Question, Motion agreed to.