HL Deb 02 July 1976 vol 372 cc979-83

1 p.m.

Report received.

Clause 2 [Regulations in connection with Section 1]:

Baroness YOUNG moved the following Amendment:

Page 2, line 38, at end insert— (2) Regulations under this section shall be framed so as to allow the prescribed experience to be acquired without undertaking whole-time employment.

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, in my enthusiasm to move my Amendment, I rose somewhat too quickly, but perhaps there was some advantage to the House in having a very short delay in all these matters before proceeding to the detail of my Amendment. I am very hopeful that the Government will be able to accept the Amendment. This is a matter which I raised on Committee. The point that I am anxious to raise is the question of the difficulties that will confront, in particular, women medical students. As the House is aware, this short Bill lays down that, before a man or a woman becomes a general practitioner, he or she will have to undertake three years' prescribed medical experience. However, all this is to be laid down in regulations under Clause 2. Although I appreciate that it is in no way the intention of the Government that there should be discrimination against women medical students, the fact remains that to add a further three years' training will make it very difficult for many women—particularly if they marry and have children. I should like to ensure that the regulations make it quite clear that this prescribed medical training need not be full-time training and that a girl can do a year, have a break and then continue or, alternatively, can work part-time each day rather than full-time. That is the purpose of the Amendment.

I raised the matter before on Committee and I quite appreciate that my Amendment was not very well drafted. However, I have taken further advice, particularly from the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, who has been most helpful. I hope that, now that it is correctly drafted, he will feel able to accept it. I believe that we are both completely agreed on this point and I do not want to detain the House by speaking further. I beg to move.

Lord PLATT

My Lords, as I spoke briefly when the noble Baroness raised an Amendment which was designed to have a similar effect to this, I should like to say that I support this measure strongly. I see no reason why there should not be arrangements for the experience to be gained in a part-time capacity. All that has to be done is to satisfy the prescribed body or board that one has done the necessary training. It may be that that could be read into the part of the Bill that we have seen—because so much is left to regulations—and I believe that it would strengthen it enormously if the Amendment were incorporated. I strongly support it.

Baroness GITSKELL

My Lords, I, too, should like to support the noble Baroness on this Amendment. Although I did not hear the whole of the Second Reading debate, I have read it and it seems to me that the Bill still leaves women—especially married women with children—discriminated against, for it is more difficult for those women to indulge in extended training. In fact, that which the Government's Sex Discrimination Act has given to women is taken away by the National Health Service (Vocational Training) Bill. Nine years' training before they can become general practitioners under the National Health Service seems to me to be a handicap for women doctors. Surely we are still suffering from a shortage of women doctors resulting from the original male discrimination in the selection of women medical students. The medical profession is one where I believe more women are needed. It is a profession which is particularly suitable for women and for working outside the family. Therefore, I believe that positive discrimination towards women—particularly married women—is necessary and that no present legislation should hinder reparation for past discrimination.

Lord PITT of HAMPSTEAD

My Lords, may I intervene to support the Amendment but also to point out that accepting part-time training will be of value not only to women doctors? It is always possible, if one accepts that the experience is to be gained in part-time training for people to do other things and at the same time gain their medical experience. I remember, as a student, one of my lecturers who invariably said, " He knows little of medicine who only medicine knows ". Therefore, I believe that the suggestion that experience should be gained part-time is a very sensible one and I hope that the Government will accept it.

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, I apologise to your Lordships for not being in my place when the Amendment was called, but the business before your Lordships today has undergone a very recent change and I did not expect that we should be on quite so quickly. I should also like to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Young, for keeping matters going until I arrived. I know how difficult it is at times and I am very grateful.

I believe that I can deal with this matter quickly but, before I do so, may I be permitted to say a word arising out of what my noble friend Lady Gaitskell has said? This is an attempt to avoid discriminating against women. In fact, I think we could be accused of discriminating in their favour so far as the Amendment is concerned. The whole purpose of the vocational training in the National Health Service is to bring into the Service—and particularly the family doctor side of the Service—more experience and greater ability, for we recognise, as have Governments before us, that the general practitioner is very much in the front line and that it is important to give him or her as much experience as it is possible to get within a reasonable time to deal with the growing numbers of new situations arising in general practice.

We recognise that, notwithstanding the wording of the Amendment, it will take some women much longer to get this type of experience, but there is no way round this and one must bear in mind that many of the women who enter general practice do not themselves want to work full time. Therefore, if one is to try to meet their needs when it comes to training, that will prolong the period of qualification.

So far as the Amendment is concerned, I recognised on Second Reading the depth of feeling of the noble Baroness on this matter. We met subsequently and talked about it fully and frankly and it was easy to see that the noble Baroness was making a point of some substance. I do not feel that I need say more than that there is a recognition of the problem here. We believe that the view of the noble Baroness is met in this wording and all I need add is to say that the Government are quite happy to accept the Amendment.

Baroness YOUNG

My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, very much indeed for accepting the Amendment and for the great trouble he personally has taken over all this. It will, I know, give great satisfaction to the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, who has asked me to say how sorry she is that she was not able to be here today, and to other women Members of this House, as to the Medical Woman's Federation, which has been particularly concerned about this point.

I am sure that this is a useful Amendment and one which will, by writing this provision into the Bill, make it absolutely clear that it will be possible to gain the prescribed medical experience part-time or, as it were, intermittently if family circumstances make that desirable, either for a man or a woman. I am very grateful to the noble Lord and to all those who have supported me.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.