CARRIAGE OF DANGEROUS GOODS IN SHIPS (Hansard, 1 July 1976)

§ Lord KENNET
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what is their forecast of the number of ships carrying —

(a)radio-active materials; and

(b)liquefied, natural or petroleum gas,

which will pass through British waters (out to 12 nautical miles) during the next 20 years; whether they are satisfied that no special policing, pilotage or other arrangements are necessary for these appallingly dangerous cargoes, and if so, why.

Lord ORAM
My Lords, it is not possible to give a valid forecast, though we are taking full account of the potential risks. Comprehensive safety requirements for the carriage of such materials are contained in the official publication, Carriage of Dangerous Goods in Ships. These requirements are reinforced by the Merchant Shipping (Dangerous Goods) Rules 1965 and are kept under constant review by an expert Standing Advisory Committee. Her Majesty's Government are very conscious of the need to pay special attention to all aspects of safety, including ship design, navigation and pilotage, concerned with the carriage of dangerous cargoes in ships, and will continue to play an active role in encouraging the formulation and improvement of regulations, international Codes of Practice and safety standards generally in this important field.

§ Lord KENNET
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. Do these regulations bite on the ships which 864 go through British waters without touching British ports? Do the Government remember that even three years ago the National Physical Laboratory estimated that 34 per cent. of ships going through the Channel were carrying dangerous cargoes? Are the Government aware that 60 per cent. of all accidents at sea take place in North-West European waters? Why are the Government letting slip an opportunity which may not recur for 20 years to introduce during the course of UNCLOS proper regulations which will bite on innocent passage through territorial waters?

Lord ORAM
My Lords, the answer to my noble friend's first question is, Yes. I would reject any suggestion on his part that the Government are in any way complacent on this matter, including the question of the control of traffic through the Dover Strait. In conjunction with the French, we monitor traffic by radar and give safety forecasts and there has been a considerable improvement over recent years. However, I will look at the points which my noble friend has raised and, if it is helpful, I will write to him about them.

§ Lord DAVIES of LEEK
My Lords, following up the question of my noble friend, may I ask whether there is any provision under the Dangerous Cargoes Act that the countries under whose flags those ships are sailing should notify the Government of the toxicity of the cargoes they carry? Also, is my noble friend Lord Oram aware that, for instance, in the Adriatic there are already some most noxious and toxic barrels of material which were dumped there on the Borders of Yugoslavia and Italy and which could endanger the whole Mediterranean unless they are recovered ? Could not some international organisation recover such toxic cargoes which may have been sunk in coastal waters?

Lord ORAM
My Lords, I am aware of the suggestion that notification under an early warning system might be helpful in this matter, but my noble friend should be aware that any such system would involve an enormous application of resources. This has to be weighed against the very real safety needs, but I do not think that, when they are examined, that extent of effort is considered to be necessary or possible.

§ The Earl of LAUDERDALE
My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that, as the years go by, there will be increasing traffic in these substances, particularly in liquified natural gas and petroleum? Have not the Government been rather complacent about this? The noble Lord, Lord Kennet, suggested that the Government were letting an opportunity slip by: is monitoring really the same as taking charge of the situation and dealing with it?

Lord ORAM
My Lords, of course there is the prospect that this kind of traffic will increase. The Government are fully aware of that prospect and are looking to that situation. That is why, far from being complacent about it, we are particularly active in the international fora concerned with these matters and are taking a lead in seeking improved regulations.

§ Lord WYNNE-JONES
My Lords, are the Government paying attention to the fact that the risk of accident almost certainly goes up by at least the square of the volume of traffic and that, consequently, if one doubles the traffic one does not merely double the risk but one multiplies it by at least four?

Lord ORAM
My Lords, I am sure that those who are examining these problems in detail are aware of the kind of proportions that my noble friend has illustrated to the House.

Viscount ST. DAVIDS
My Lords, is not the position really a matter of accepting a continuation of great patience and great pressures? In a democratic world, faced with the fact that all these various countries are independent and have to be persuaded, we must continue that international persuasion relentlessly, even as in this country we have to go on persuading the trade unions?

Lord ORAM
My Lords, without particular reference to the last few words of the noble Viscount, I agree with him that success in these matters depends on international collaboration, and that, in this as in all fields, is necessarily a slow, painstaking business. I sought to indicate to the House that we are successfully engaged on that slow and painstaking exercise.

§ Lord SHINWELL
My Lords, can my noble friend say whether, in view of the concern over this matter, the British Council of Shipping, which represents the vast body of shipowners in the United Kingdom, has after consultation with the Government expressed its satisfaction with the arrangements?

Lord ORAM
My Lords, I cannot give any specific answer to my noble friend, but I shall make inquiries and let him know.

§ The Earl of LAUDERDALE
My Lords, will the noble Lord look back by way of analogy at the situation as regards the safety of oil rigs? I know that this point is not covered by this Question, but there is an analogy, because two years ago the noble Lord opposite, occupying that seat on the Front Bench, said that the safety of rigs was really no problem at all; it did not matter. Now he is taking it very seriously. We are asking the noble Lord to take this matter very seriously and to get a move on with it.

Lord ORAM
My Lords, I have given the House the assurance that we take this matter very seriously and we are getting a move on, subject to the considerations of international collaboration which, obviously, are not entirely in our control. We are playing our part.

§ Lord KENNET
My Lords, in view of the noble Lord's statement that the dangerous cargo regulations bite on ships going through British territorial waters but not touching British ports, can he tell the House how many such ships have been stopped and searched in order to enforce those regulations?

Lord ORAM
Not without notice, I am afraid, my Lords.

§ Baroness SUMMERSKILL
My Lords, can my noble friend say whether the seamen's organisations have expressed any views upon this matter?

Lord ORAM
My Lords, I have no doubt that they have, but I have not had them drawn to my particular attention in connection with this Question.