§ 2.56 p.m.
§ Lord MONTAGU of BEAULIEUMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will hold discussions with British Rail with a view to extending cheap mid-week travel to those holding disability pensions, in the same way as to old age pensioners.
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, it is the Board's management responsibility to decide what fares to charge. They do in fact already offer some reductions for disabled people; and their national reduced fares scheme is available to all disabled people who can take advantage of it.
§ Lord MONTAGU of BEAULIEUMy Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for that Answer, may I ask whether she would agree to have more conversations with the Minister concerned with the disabled in order to see whether more concessions might be given to disabled war pensioners to use trains mid-week, since fares are rising dramatically in comparison to pensions?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, as I pointed out in my original Answer, they are able to use the concessionary fares mid-week. The point is that whereas old age pensioners are an homogenous group, so far as disabled people are concerned it is very difficult to get them into one group, because they are more diffused and the degree of disablement can vary enormously. Nevertheless, there are fare concessions for the disabled, the blind and those in wheelchairs, and now there is accommodation in first class compartments to hold wheelchairs.
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, while not in any way wishing to upset my noble friend behind me, may I ask the noble Baroness whether she is aware that there is a vast difference between certain disabilities of pensioners, because some may have leg injuries while other disabled pensioners who have eye injuries—such as myself—do not need any concessions?
§ Baroness BIRKYes, my Lords, I had that in mind when I answered the noble Lord's Question.
Lord HAWKEMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that British Rail are rapidly pricing themselves out of the 920 entire market? Is she aware that, because fares are going up so much, it is not only disabled people who cannot afford to travel, but people of all classes and incomes? Would the noble Baroness ask her colleague in charge of these matters whether British Rail could have a trial period of a month or two during which they would revert to reasonable fares, to see whether they could get their rolling stock better occupied and turn themselves into a profitable business again?
§ Baroness BIRKNo, my Lords, because that is an entirely different Question and one that the noble Lord will have to put down in different terms.
§ The Earl of PERTHMy Lords, before we go on with the Business of the House, may I put a point to the noble Lord the Leader of the House? On the first Question I asked for clarification of an answer that had been given by the noble Baroness. I was not extending the Question in any way. I fully recognise that it is very important that the House should not wander or talk too much on Questions when we want to get down to Business; but I think I have a right to demand an answer to the question which I put, which merely asked the noble Baroness to please explain the meaning, in terms of acres, of 000 something and, if the answer was not known, whether she would inform the House at a later date.
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, may I say to the noble Earl that no noble Lord can demand the right to put a question. because all questions are put by leave of the House. It is also for Ministers to decide which questions they can answer. My noble friend did not have available the information requested. She has just said to me that she will write to the noble Earl, and if he then wishes it to be put into the Official Report so that other noble Lords may be aware of the question and answer, I will so arrange it.
But I have to say this. Increasingly, we go very wide of the original Questions on the Order Paper. There is a limit to what Ministers can be expected to reply to, and I think the House has to exercise a certain amount of judgment and charity. Ministers on both sides have always sought to provide the House with the maximum possible 921 information about a Question on the Order Paper, but there must be an understanding that there are limits to what any Minister can have at his or her fingertips at any particular moment.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINTMARYLEBONEMy Lords, without in any way seeking to dispute what my noble friend on the Cross-Benches may say, I hope that the House and the Government will be aware that we are very grateful to Ministers for the generous efforts which they make to answer our Questions. Whether we are always completely satisfied with the answers is rather a different matter.
§ The Earl of PERTHMy Lords, I should like to say, "Thank you very much", to the noble Lord the Leader of the House. Certainly, all that I want is to have the answer in due course, and I am in no way criticising the fact that we were not given it earlier.