§ 2.44 p.m.
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied with the advice they have issued to local authorities on procedures to prevent non-accidental injury to children occurring partly as a result of an incomplete exchange of information between responsible welfare agencies; whether they will take steps to revise or reinforce that guidance in the light of the report on the case of Steven Meurs; and whether they intend to take any further steps to prevent the occurrence of similar tragic events.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, the need for the closest co-operation between all agencies concerned with children at risk and for a full and frank exchange of relevant information between all those involved has been a central feature of the guidance which has been 465 issued on this subject both by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Services and by other Departments who also have responsibilities in this field, and such guidance is kept under continuous review. It has been reinforced in guidance on good practice which has been prepared and issued locally by many of the area review committees which have been set up in England and Wales to co-ordinate the activities of all agencies involved in their areas. It will again be emphasised in guidance which my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Services will be issuing from her Department early next month.
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. Does he agree that the breakdown in communications and some other ills which the welfare services experience, arise in part from the fact that over 60 per cent. of the workers in those services, with the exception of the Probation Service, are untrained? Would he agree that the 30 to 40 per cent., or minority, of trained and experienced workers naturally progress to higher points of the hierarchy where they are administratively employed? If that is so, can the noble Lord tell us what steps are taken by local authorities to draw on this reservoir of experience and training to provide in-service training for those who are not so qualified?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I have some sympathy with what the noble Lord has just said. It has been a matter of very grave concern to a large number of people who are familiar with the demands in the field of professional social work that so many people engaged in this work today are in fact untrained. But we are faced with a very serious problem. There is an enormous number of children who need some kind of visitation and supervision, and the local authority social services departments are like a vast army locked in battle. They have to deal with the enemy and do not really have time to disengage and look at what is going on.
However, the noble Lord is perfectly right; more money should be spent on the training of social workers. I am happy to say that a fair number—I believe a large number—of local authorities have in-service training schemes and further 466 training schemes in operation. I should like to think that those who occupy the higher administrative positions in local authority social services departments, having come up from the grass roots, are putting their expertise and their knowledge at the disposal of those who are in the course of being trained. But the noble Lord is quite right; this is a matter which we must watch carefully.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, would it not be true to say that the whole community stands condemned in this case—not only the social workers, but friends and neighbours of this poor woman whose child died? Does my noble friend agree that it is not actually so much expertise or training that is needed, but rather a little plain common sense, which cannot be applied in all the areas of social services but which in this case might have prevented this tragedy?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am not so sure that it is as simple as that. This case reveals a regrettable, lamentable situation. But I understand that there was no complaint at any time from any neighbours who might have known of the situation. I come back to the fact that the case-load of the average social worker in our local authorities is enormous, and while I deplore what has happened I hope that we shall not go on from battered babies and battered wives to battering social workers who, on the whole, are doing a magnificent job.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, I very much agree with what the noble Lord has just said, but was there not a real danger signal in this tragic case; namely, the failure to note the significance of the fact that the mother would not admit people to her house? Ought not the Government to impress upon local authorities the importance of recognising a signal of that kind, which is something which can be seen without very much training?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, this is a signal which is well known to experienced people within the field. Unfortunately, it is not always appreciated by the untrained person, and perhaps it was a little unfortunate that that was the situation in this particular case. But I do not think there is any need for the Government to impress upon local authorities that this is a particular point 467 which must be watched. This has already been pointed out. I should like to call your Lordships' attention to the fact that, following the guidance which my right hnourable friend sent out in April 1974, there are now all over the country area review committees which represent the same areas as those covered by the Area Health Authorities, and many of these committees have themselves issued instructions and guidance to social workers. I have here such a booklet which covers merely the borough of Lambeth, South-warkand Lewisham. It is very comprehensive and in the very near future it is likely that something similar will be issued by all the Area Review Committees appointed to deal with this kind of situation.
§ Lord WADEMy Lords, to revert to the original Question, may I ask the noble Lord whether the problem mainly arises from the incomplete exchange of information or from the heavy burden of work falling upon welfare workers in the various agencies? Which is the main cause?
§ Lords WELLS-PESTELLI should not like to say, my Lords. I can remember that when I was in the Probation Service I had 200 cases, and I did not have time to talk to anybody, however much I may have wanted to do so. This was many years ago. The more case conferences there are, the more experienced social workers are being taken out of the field, and another tragedy is likely to happen. I do not know which comes first.
§ Baroness SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, as a large number of women refuse to allow officials to enter their houses, can we condemn this social worker out of hand for not regarding it as a most unusual occurrence for a woman not to allow her to enter her house?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I hope we would not condemn the social worker. As I say, it is an extremely difficult situation. First, there is a question of individual judgment, which can be wrong on occasions. Then there is the pressure of work, and there are many other factors which have to be taken into account.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, the last thing I was seeking to do was to condemn anybody. What I was asking the Government to do, in a case where there is a child known to be at risk and a refusal, was to emphasise the importance and recognise the significance of those two facts where they occur together.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I can assure the noble and learned Lord that we are not unmindful of that and what he has suggested has in fact been done. Obviously, if my right honourable friend is going to issue further advice in the near future this may well be a point which needs emphasising again.
Lord INGLEWOODMy Lords, in his original reply the noble Lord made no mention of Scotland, but as there has been reference to an exchange of information and area review committees may I ask him to ensure that this exchange crosses the Scottish Border? North of the Border the administrative and social welfare arrangements are slightly different from those South. This is an area where it is most important that this sort of information is available.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am not sure of the responsibility of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Services in this matter. I do not know whether or not it includes Scotland. My suspicions are that it does not, but I will certainly draw this point to her attention and see whether anything she may do and say in the matter is communicated to the Secretary of State for Scotland.
Lord INGLEWOODBut, my Lords, the noble Lord will agree that the Border should not be an Iron Curtain.
§ Lord LEATHERLANDMy Lords, may I seriously ask my noble friend this question? Is he aware of the fact that before the previous Government enacted the Local Government (Reorganisation) Act—I am not speaking from a Party point of view now—each county council and county borough had a special children's department under a children's officer? Is he further aware of the fact that under that reorganisation scheme each children's department as such was abolished and merged ino a general social welfare department? Does he not think 469 that it might be a good thing to reinstate the original children's departments, where the problems of children could have specific attention from skilled workers?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I should be obliged if my noble friend would allow me not to answer that until I have been able to think about this and to consult my colleagues. But let me say here and now that with the passing of the children's departments and the children's officers we have lost a great deal of skill and competence.
§ Baroness MASHAM of ILTONMy Lords, am I not right in thinking that in this particular case of Steven Meurs the uncle complained, and was he not called "a silly old interfering man"?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I will take the noble Baroness's word for that, but I was not aware of it.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, while endorsing the Minister' tribute to social workers, may I ask him whether the Government would consider entering into sonic discussion with the Social Workers' Association with a view to dealing with problems of this character?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I know from my own personal knowledge that we are constantly in touch. There are 300 voluntary and professional organisations responsible for social work in this country, and I think I can say that we are in touch with them all, obtaining their views, their comments and their observations on the whole range of social services.
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, may I revert to the noble Lord's answer to my original supplementary about the extent to which the existing pool of training and expertise is used for in-service and in-house training? May I ask him, in the light of his not absolutely concrete reply to that specific point, whether he will take steps to ascertain how far it is common practice in local authorities to make that use of those resources, and let us know the result of his inquiry?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I shall be glad to convey what the noble Lord has just said to my right honourable friend to see whether that kind of information can be obtained.