§ 3.44 p.m.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, with the permission of your Lordships, I shall repeat a Statement being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Minister of State. The Statement is as follows:
"I will, with your permission Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, make a Statement on Rhodesia.
"The House will be aware that there has been increasing evidence that the talks in Salisbury between Mr. Smith and Mr. Nkomo have not so far achieved agreement and that the gap between the two sides has seemed still to be very wide. Shortly after Mr. Nkomo's recent visit to London to see my right honourable friend, there were some indirect indications that Mr. Smith has reconsidered his position about some British involvement in the negotiations for a constitutional settlement in Rhodesia.
"My right honourable friend therefore thought it right to send a message to Mr. Smith seeking clarification of his attitude. At the same time he made it clear that he would see no role for the British Government unless he was satisfied that Mr. Smith was ready to go very much further to meet current African proposals for an early transition to majority rule. My right honourable friend naturally emphasised the serious consequences for all the people of Rhodesia of the end of the prospect of a negotiated settlement.
"In the light of the reply received last weekend my right honourable friend has decided to send a representative to Salisbury in order to assess Mr. Smith's position. A former Permanent Under-Secretary at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, Lord Greenhill of Harrow, is accordingly leaving 643 for Salisbury this evening. The Government are grateful to Lord Greenhill for agreeing to undertake this task.
"The purpose of Lord Greenhill's mission is purely exploratory. He will try to find out whether Mr. Smith's attitude is now such that there is any real possibility four helping to promote a settlement which would provide for an early and orderly transfer of power in Rhodesia. He is not taking with him proposals, nor will he be in a position to negotiate or take part in substantive discussions about a possible constitutional settlement. In the light of Lord Greenhill's report, my right honourable friend will consider with his colleagues whether there is some way in which Her Majesty's Government might usefully become involved."
My Lords, that is the end of the Statement.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, I am sure my noble friends would wish me to thank the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, for his courtesy in giving us the information contained in the Statement. On this side of the House we appreciate the manner in which this very delicate matter has been handled, requiring, as it does, both statesmanship and diplomacy. It was understood that the meeting between Mr. Nkomo and the Foreign Secretary held in London quite recently was secret, and I think this is the first time we have had any indication of what the contents of those discussions might be.
My Lords, it is clear that the progress between Mr. Smith and Mr. Nkomo has still not gone as far as to reach any form of settlement. From the Statement we can now understand that clearly some differences exist. However, it is also clear that the radical change in the military and political situation in that part of the world, the establishment and apparent non-removal of the Cuban troops and the establishment of their families in Angola, will certainly affect the lives eventually of all the citizens of Rhodesia. I am sure it is also clear to all sides of the House that time is of the essence in this matter. In view of the urgent desire on all sides of the House, I am quite certain, for the avoidance of violence and bloodshed, we commend the action of 644 the Government in sending such a distinguished diplomat as the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill of Harrow, and wish him every success in his difficult and delicate task.
§ Lord BANKSMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, for repeating the Statement made in another place. On behalf of my noble friends I should like to give the Statement a cautious welcome: a cautious welcome for the announcement of the proposed visit to Salisbury of the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill of Harrow; a welcome because I think that an early settlement is very much to be desired for the reasons which have been expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Elles, and a cautious welcome because I should not like to see the British Government involved in a long and fruitless period of semi-negotiation.
My Lords, as the Statement said, the crux of the matter is whether Mr. Smith is now prepared to talk seriously about majority rule, and I hope that his intentions in that respect will be quickly ascertained. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, would agree that it is important that any settlement should be acceptable to Rhodesian Nationalist opinion outside Rhodesia as well as inside, and also to the Governments of Zambia, Botswana, Mozambique and Tanzania. But most important of all is that the settlement should be acceptable to Rhodesian public opinion, and that this should be clearly expressed in a suitable test of public opinion. Like the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, we wish to see a settlement in Rhodesia based, as the greatly-to-be-welcomed Statement by the EEC Foreign Ministers put it yesterday on the self-determination of the Rhodesian peoples.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am sure that the entire House will join with me in welcoming the tone and content of the two statements we have just had, from the noble Baroness, Lady Elles, on behalf of the Opposition Front Bench, and also the noble Lord, Lord Banks, for the Liberal Party. Nothing they have said can do anything but help in this very delicate situation, as the noble Baroness, Lady Elles, so aptly described it. I welcome what Lord Banks said about our extending a cautious welcome 645 to this move—certainly a very warm welcome, and gratitude, to my noble friend Lord Greenhill of Harrow for undertaking this mission—and great care in not expecting too much from it. I join with them in expressing the hope, which I know is shared by the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary, that this move may expedite, may make possible, an early settlement, not only for the future of Rhodesia and all its peoples, but also for Central and Southern Africa.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, would the noble Lord agree that one of the concomitants for a satisfactory settlement of this very delicate problem is that at all costs the confidence of African opinion should be retained? In that context may I ask him two questions? First, when was the decision taken to send Lord Greenhill? Secondly, have steps been taken to inform Mr. Nkomo, and, if so, what has Mr. Nkomo's reaction been?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I cannot say precisely when Lord Greenhill was invited to undertake this mission, but I should say that it was very recently indeed. We have, naturally, had in mind the possibility of a move such as this, without precisely deciding who would be the most suitable emissary for this purpose. Of course, Mr. Nkomo and everybody else involved in this delicate situation in Rhodesia will have been informed of our decision to send a special emissary at once to assess the situation, and certainly to assess Mr. Ian Smith's present attitude to the possible involvement of Britain.
§ Lord ALPORTMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether the Government will bear in mind that, whatever may be the outcome of Lord Greenhill's visit, the key to a settlement in Rhodesia is now the control of the security situation and the position of the Security Forces during the period of transition, however long that may last? If this country and this Government are to play a constructive part in reaching a settlement, they must beforehand make up their minds whether they are prepared, perhaps in conjunction with other Southern African Governments, to do something to ensure the continuance of internal and external security in Rhodesia.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, in responding affirmatively to what the noble Lord, Lord Alport, has said, may I also say how much I agree with my noble friend Lord Wigg when he says that any agreement must, of course, command the full support of the African peoples.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, in view of the fact that the African nationalists outside Rhodesia have made it quite plain that a Government formed by Mr. Nkomo would be just as unacceptable to them as a Government formed by Mr. Smith, what is the object of this intervention? If Mr. Nkomo became the ruler of Rhodesia he would have to fight for his political life against the other nationalists, in the same way as his opposite numbers on the other side of Africa have done, and he would, equally, be defeated by the superior arms of the Cubans. If we achieve an agreement and Mr. Nkomo becomes Prime Minister, are we going to send troops to support him? We do not have any troops to spare.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, nor have we any hard and fast assumptions. As usual my noble friend very forcibly puts forward what are not facts but assumptions. Even if the chances of Mr. Nkomo—who has so far engaged in peaceful negotiation—areas small as my noble friend suggests, that is no reason why we should not grasp at every opportunity of helping him and other moderate elements among the African peoples.
§ Lord COLERAINEMy Lords, the noble Lord will understand that I do not wish to add fuel to a situation which is already highly inflammatory, but may I ask the Leader of the House whether, after Lord Greenhill's visit, there might be an opportunity to debate the whole question of Southern Africa?
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, of course, we arc always willing to consider representations for debate through the usual channels. The noble Lord himself referred to the sensitive position, and I suggest that a decision on whether we have a debate should be taken in the light of the general circumstances. This is a matter which we can certainly discuss through the usual channels.
§ 3.57 p.m.