HL Deb 17 February 1976 vol 368 cc393-9

4.38 p.m.

The Earl of SELKIRK

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.

Moved, that the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The LORD CHAMPION in the Chair]

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2 [Power of Society to deal with client accounts of solicitor incapacitated]:

The Earl of SELKIRK moved Amendment No. 1: Page 2, line 29, after (" incapacity ") insert (" and absence of other acceptable arrangements ").

The noble Earl said: At first glance it might appear to the Committee to be a rather formidable body of Amendments on the Marshalled List, but I can assure the Committee that there is no essential change in meaning in any of them. They all fall within the category of drafting, technical or clarification. I hope, therefore, that the Committee will not think it a liberty if I do not dwell unduly in the explanations which I propose to make to these Amendments. However, I should not like this opportunity to pass without expressing my gratitude to the Lord Advocate's Department for the assistance they gave in getting the terms of these Amendments correct. I should be grateful if the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhill, would convey my thanks to the Lord Advocate's Department and, not least, for explaining to me some of the technical points which inevitably arise in the course of a Bill of this character.

The first Amendment deals with the case in Clause 2 of a solicitor who is incapacitated and thereby unable to deal with his client's accounts. In these circumstances the Law Society has authority to operate them. However, this authority is limited by the words, "the absence of other acceptable arrangements" and I believe that this is sensible. In certain cases solicitors work in close co-operation with other solicitors and the situation may arise where the intervention of the Law Society would not be necessary. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3 [Society entitled to recover expenses incurred]:

The Earl of SELKIRK moved Amendment No. 2: Page 2, line 41, after (" have ") insert (" thereby ").

The noble Earl said: This is little more than a drafting Amendment. It simply makes it clear that, in regard to recovering expenses, the Society can recover expenses incurred only in the course of its work connected with the estate. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 4 agreed to.

Clause 5 [Extension of power of Council to make rules regarding certain accounts]:

The Earl of SELKIRK moved Amendment No. 3: Leave out Clause 5 and insert the following new Clause:

Extension of power of Council to makes rules regarding certain accounts

"5.—(1) The duties to make rules imposed on the Council of the Society by section 20(1)(a) of the Act of 1949 (Council of Society to make rules with respect to bank accounts etc.) shall be duties to make rules requiring solicitors to open and keep accounts only with the Bank of England, a Trustee Savings Bank within the meaning of section 95 of the Trustee Savings Bank Act 1969, the National Savings Bank and any company as to which the Secretary of State is satisfied that it ought to be treated as a banking company or as a discount company for the purposes of the Protection of Depositors Act 1963 as amended by the Companies Act 1967; and the rules may specify the location of the banks' or companies' branches at which the accounts are to be kept.

(2) In section 20(1) of the Act of 1949 (Council of Society to make rules with respect to bank accounts etc.)—

  1. (a) after paragraph (a) there shall be inserted the following paragraph—
  2. (b) at the end there shall be inserted the following—

" In this subsection" "local authority" means a local authority within the meaning of the Local Government Act 1972 or the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973 ".

(3) Section 3(2) of the Act of 1965 shall have effect as if there were included in the meaning of client account a reference to the accounts mentioned in section 20 of the Act of 1949 as amended by subsections (1) and (2) above."

The noble Earl said: This clause is redrafted, the purpose being three-fold. One is to get the definition of "a bank" correct (curiously enough, it is a combination of the Protection of Depositors Act and the Companies Act 1967), the second is to get correct the manner in which investments can be made in building societies or, thirdly, loans can be let out on a temporary or permanent basis to local authorities. I beg to move.

The MINISTER of STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (Lord Kirkhill)

Perhaps I should say at this point that so far as this Amendment is concerned, and indeed the preceding and succeeding Amendments, the Government view is one of benevolent neutrality. I undertake to convey to my right honourable and learned friend the Lord Advocate the very kind words spoken a few moments ago by the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 6 [Power of Council in investigating complaints]:

The Earl of SELKIRK

I beg to move Amendment No. 4, which is a drafting Amendment to make it quite clear that this clause deals only with the delays of solicitors.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 37, leave out (" matter ") and insert (" delay ")—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

The Earl of SELKIRK

This is not much more than a drafting Amendment. It strengthens the Society's hands slightly in making its demands a requisition, a requirement, and not simply an invitation. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 38, leave out (" invite ") and insert (" require ")—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

The Earl of SELKIRK

I beg to move Amendment No. 6, which is a drafting Amendment consequent upon Amendment No. 4.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 39, leave out (" in respect of the matter ") and insert ("of the delay")— (T he Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 7 [Investigation by lay observer of Society's treatment of complaints]:

The Earl of SELKIRK moved Amendment No. 7: Page 4, line 36, after (" staff ") insert (" the number of his staff ")

The noble Earl said: This clause deals with the appointment by the Secretary of State of a lay observer. The Secretary of State pays for the lay observer, as he is entitled to do under subsection (8). This Amendment makes it clear that he not only settles the terms of employment and remuneration of the staff but also decides the number of staff; as he pays the staff, it seems reasonable that he should be able to lay down the number of staff. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 8 [Arrangements for professional indemnity]:

The Earl of SELKIRK

This Amendment, No. 8, is designed to give the correct definition of "insurable company."

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 15, leave out from (" person ") to end of line 17 and insert (" permitted under the Insurance Companies Act 1974 to carry on liability insurance business or pecuniary loss insurance business;").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

The Earl of SELKIRK

I beg to move Amendment No. 9, which is consequential upon the last Amendment where the reference appears later in the same clause.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 19, leave out from (" person ") to end of line 21 and insert ("permitted under the insurance Companies Act 1974 to carry on liability insurance business or pecuniary loss insurance business; ").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

The Earl of SELKIRK

This Amendment, No. 10, is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 16, leave out (" Solicitors (Scotland) Act ") and insert (" Act of ").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 9 to 11 agreed to.

Clause 12 [Solicitors acting as consultants to hold Practising Certificates]:

The Earl of SELKIRK

I beg to move Amendment No. 11, which is a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 8, line 16, leave out (" or not ").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 12, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 13 and 14 agreed to.

Clause 15 [Discipline Tribunal to include lay members]:

The Earl of SELKIRK moved Amendment No. 12: Page 9, line 10, leave out (" Committee ") and insert (" Tribunal ").

The noble Earl said: In the previous clause we amended the 1933 Act and called the Discipline Committee the Discipline Tribunal. Accordingly, it is correct, when referring to that in the next clause, to call it not the Discipline Committee but the Discipline Tribunal. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

The Earl of SELKIRK

I beg to move Amendment No. 13, which is a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 9, line 16, after (" or ") insert (", as the case may be,"),—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 16 [Power of Society to deal with client account of solicitor struck off roll or suspended]:

The Earl of SELKIRK moved Amendment No. 14:

Page 9, leave out subsection (1) and insert— (1) Where a solicitor who is practising as a solicitor under his own name or as a sole solicitor under a firm name has been struck off the roll of solicitors or has been suspended from practice, there shall, notwithstanding any enactment or any rule of law to the contrary, vest thereupon in the Society to the exclusion of any other person the right to operate on or otherwise deal with any client account in name of the solicitor or his firm.

The noble Earl said: I regret that the reference was not fully made out in this clause; it should be page 9, line 33. This is a re-draft of Clause 16(1) which I think is clearer and shorter. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 17 [Power of Discipline Tribunal to order decision to take effect on intimation, and to impose conditions on Practising Certificates]:

The Earl of SELKIRK moved Amendment No. 15: Page 10, line 13, leave out from (" effect ") to end of line 14 and insert ("notwithstanding that any matter before the Court under the said section 7 has not been finally determined.")

The noble Earl said: This is little more than drafting and is intended simply to make it clear that when a solicitor is suspended or struck off, if he appeals to the court the suspension or striking off is still operative if and until the court comes to the opposite conclusion; that is, pending the period when it is before the courts, the suspension or striking off holds good. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to. Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 18 to 24 agreed to.

Clause 25 [Interpretation]:

The Earl of SELKIRK

I beg to move Amendment No. 16. This is a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 12, line 18, leave out (" Legal Aid and ").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

The Earl of SELKIRK

I beg to move Amendment No. 17, which again is a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 12, line 26, after (" amended ") insert (" extended or applied ").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 25, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clause agreed to.

House resumed: Bill reported with the Amendments.