HL Deb 11 February 1976 vol 368 cc83-5
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a Statement on the conference arranged by the Western democratic countries on the freight rates charged by the Soviet Union for cargo shipping.

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, the noble Baroness may have misunderstood my remarks in answer to her Question of 28th January. No conference has been arranged, but the Western maritime countries, in two international fora, have discussed the Question of Eastern bloc shipping activity in the course of their recent meetings. The matter will continue to be considered internationally.

Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDE

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I inform him that there was no misunderstanding on my part? Would he agree that when my Question was answered I got a reasonably satisfactory reply? May I again ask for an assurance that, from wherever the action comes, it is up to both this Government and the Western democracies to see that British shipping is not put out of action by those behind the Iron Curtain, particularly the Soviet Union, who are making it almost impossible on a reasonably competitive basis for our shipping to remain in full-time operation? Is it not a fact that we really must take some action now?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, the noble Baroness is quite right in that the interests of the United Kingdom are greater than those of our partners in Western Europe because we are one of the major maritime Powers. We are very much aware of this but we cannot move alone; we have to move in concert with our friends in the shipping world, and that we are doing. As I said in my previous reply, the situation is not yet damaging, but there is a threat to the future which we are watching most carefully.

Lord DERWENT

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to explain what he meant when he said that there was not a conference but there were fora? Do fora move more quickly than conferences?

Baroness ELLES

My Lords, can the noble Lord confirm that the Russians entered the freight trade last September with the declared objective of gaining 30 per cent. of world shipping freight trade which they did not already have? Are we in fact acting in concert with other Western European nations? Are we in agreement with them and do we have a policy which is in line with theirs? May I ask the noble Lord also to say whether any consideration is being given to the requirement now being made in the United States that any foreign freight at an artificially low rate should justify its action before a federal maritime commission?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, perhaps one of the reasons why there is confusion here is that two separate issues are at stake. There are the issues of (shall we say?) bilateral trade between ourselves and the USSR, which are governed by an agreement between us, and there are the problems of what is known as the cross trade—I suppose, tramping—which is what we are really talking about today. We cannot act alone; we must act in concert with our friends in the maritime industry and that is what we are doing. Perhaps I should add that because we are, in this particular group, the major maritime Power we must give a lead, but we cannot move alone.

Lord BLYTON

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that I always thought the Opposition believed that competition was the dynamic force which made capitalism successful? Why are noble Lords opposite complaining now?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, in the terms of our agreement with the Soviet Union it is "fair competition" which is the dynamic force. There is such a thing as unfair competition.

Lord GISBOROUGH

My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that the Eastern fleets constitute what is virtually dumping? Would he further agree that the long-term effect will be very serious for our shipyards?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

If it were allowed to get out of hand, yes, my Lords, but I do not think we shall let it get out of hand.

Lord LEATHERLAND

My Lords, while my noble friend is trying to help the British shipping industry, may I ask if he will also suggest to those concerned that they should place more of their orders with British firms instead of placing 70 per cent. of them with Japanese and German shipyards as at present?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

That is a different economic question, my Lords.

Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDE

My Lords, having listened to the Minister's helpful reply, may I ask him when he will be ready for me to put down another Question to see how we are getting on over this?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, it is always a pleasure to answer the noble Baroness.