§ 2.46 p.m.
§ Lord AYLESTONEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will advise local authorities of the undesirability of cutting back expenditure on day centres and meals on wheels services, in their necessary drive for financial savings.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, following the recent rate support grant settlement for 1976–77 we have advised local authorities that, while the provision in the settlement for current expenditure on personal social services allows no scope for general improvement next year, priority should be given to the maintenance of the effectiveness of the field services, domiciliary services, and to services for children. It is, however, for individual local authorities to consider their own priorities in the light of local needs and circumstances.
§ Lord AYLESTONEMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for his reply, may I ask him whether he realises that these two services affect aged and often lonely people, that the day centres provide about five hours a day of friendship 78 and companionship over a mid-day meal, and that the meals on wheels service means that at least one visitor to speak to calls each day? Will he consider making both of these services statutory on the local authorities?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, in reply to the second part of my noble friend's supplementary question, I should have to take advice on the matter of whether this should be mandatory on local authorities. But I think I should point out to your Lordships that in the 12 months ending 31st March 1975, 23.5 million meals on wheels were served. This is an increase of about 14 per cent. over the previous three years.
In addition to meals on wheels, in the 12 months ending 31st March 1975, there were 14.4 million meals served in clubs and similar establishments, mainly to old and disabled people. With regard to the number of day centres, on 31st March 1975, there were in local authority day centres—if I may be permitted to give round figures—over 10,000 places for the elderly, over 3,000 places for the mentally ill, over 10,000 places for the physically handicapped and over 8,000 places in mixed centres. In the three years which ended 31st March 1975 the number of places in local authority day centres has increased overall by about 13 per cent. per annum. I cannot give your Lordships the number of day centres which are run by voluntary organisations, but I believe the number to be quite substantial.
§ Lord ABERDAREMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that both of these services involve a tremendous amount of voluntary effort, especially meals on wheels? They provide very economic services as well as very important ones. Therefore I think we all consider that these are the last services which ought to be cut.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for reminding me of something of which I ought to have informed your Lordships. I think that every one of your Lordships will appreciate the fact that about 60 per cent. of the meals on wheels are served wholly or mainly by voluntary organisations, to whom I am sure we are all grateful.
§ Baroness SEEARMy Lords, would the Minister agree that meals on wheels is a way of keeping in their own homes people who might otherwise have to be put into institutions, and is also a way of keeping at work people who are looking after those old people? Would he agree that this is not only a humane but an economic service, which ought not to becut on economic as well as social grounds?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I entirely agree—and I know that my Department agrees—with what the noble Baroness has said. We have given a good deal of consideration to this matter, and the noble Baroness will be interested to know that the Department is initiating research into meals provision and day centres for the elderly in an attempt to find out the real need of old people for these services and the most effective and cost-effective forms of providing them. I entirely agree with what the noble Baroness has said.
Baroness VICKERSMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he would agree that the service is not just for the elderly but also for the crippled and the blind? This is a very good service for all three categories. I have delivered meals and know that very often it is the only contact that these people have with the outside world. May I further remind him that they pay towards this. It is not a completely free service, and never in my experience have people either refused to pay or not had their money ready when we arrived. Therefore, I should like to suggest—
§ Several Noble Lords: Question!
Baroness VICKERSMay I ask the noble Lord whether this is not the last service that we should consider cutting at the present time?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I can only repeat that we must leave it to the discretion of local authorities. We have made our position perfectly clear. We have said that we do not want to see cuts in certain services, and I do not think that we can go beyond that. I pointed out to your Lordships that there were 14.4 million meals served in clubs and similar institutions not only to the old but also to disabled people. We are aware of the needs. So far as cost is con- 80 cerned, my information is that some local authorities provide meals as a voluntary service, and others make a charge. I believe it to be discretionary.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that some local authorities, in exercising their discretion, make services like these and similar social services their first target for cuts? Will he give some assurance that, where there is evidence that a local authority has drastically reduced these services against the public interest, the Government will not only give them advice but take some action?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, if its attention was called to such reductions, I think tht my Department would be prepared to do something in the matter.