HL Deb 15 December 1976 vol 378 cc883-5

2.40 p.m.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether GEC-Marconi have given an assurance that communications equipent, whose export to the Republic of South Africa has been licensed, will be used entirely for civilian and not for military purposes.

The MINISTER of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)

My Lords, it is not normal practice to comment on individual export licences, but I can assure noble Lords that the technical capabilities of the equipment, as well as its possible application in South Africa, were most carefully examined before a licence was granted. Her Majesty's Government are satisfied that the export of the equipment covered by this particular licence does not contravene our undertakings in respect of the United Nations embargo on arms sales to South Africa.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I am honestly puzzled about this and I am asking for information. Is it not the case that this proposal is for links between the Republic and Namibia and that originally the proposal was that it should be a contract with the South African Armaments Department? Is it not the case that it was transferred to the Post Office but that, when it was transferred, the Marconi Company said in a letter of 21st July that the Post Office would provide any necessary circuits for military users? Is not this a denial of the Government's policy of refusing military aid to the Republic?

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

I do not think so, my Lords. The firm in question have assured us that none of the equipment is to be installed in Namibia. Secondly, the equipment merely provides telephone and teleprinter channels between fixed points and is similar to equipment used to communicate with the North Sea oil rigs. It is not radar and cannot locate movement and it will form part of the existing South African post office network. As to the point that the South African Armaments Board acted as purchasing agent in this matter, it is the nominal purchaser in this case, but it frequently acts as agent for other South African Government departments anyway.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, may ask my noble friend whether a similar guarantee is to be asked of the Soviet Union when we proceed to export Rolls-Royce engines there? Are they to be used solely for civilian purposes?

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, the general control exercised over export applies to South Africa, to the Soviet Union, and indeed to every other recipient country.

Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON

My Lords, has my noble friend reconsidered the situation since the Cuban/Russian invasion of Angola and the present move into Mozambique? In the light of this situation, can we not reconsider our policy as to arms for South Africa?

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, the present position is, that, like every other member of the United Nations, we conform to our international obligations as required of us as members of that organisation. As to the future development of policy in various parts of the world, I cannot answer at this point.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, while I agree with my noble friend in opposing Russian intervention in African countries, we are now considering a British policy. Is it not the case that the Marconi Company has said that these facilities will be used for military purposes and is that not a repudiation of our policy of refusing military aid to the apartheid Government?

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I do not think so. I really believe that it would be very difficult indeed to think of any article of engineering or electronics equipment mainly meant for civilian use that could not in any circumstances be used for military purposes. In this case, we are fully satisfied that, in the provision of this equipment to the South African Government, while we are in normal trading relations with South Africa, apart from our obligations to the United Nations, our obligations are being fully met.

Lord SLATER

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that it has never been the policy of the British Post Office to go outside eligibility and in this particular instance it would keep within the confines of what has been laid down, regarding the industry concerned as a service industry in this connection?

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

Yes indeed, my Lords. As a former Minister dealing with the Post Office, my noble friend will understand fully when I say that it would be very difficult to export, for instance, a telecommunications system and at the same time to make quite certain that it was never used by a member of the military personnel of the country concerned.

Lord CARRINGTON

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that we had a balance-of-payments deficit of £500 million last month?

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

Yes indeed I am, my Lords, just as I was aware when I first became a Minister in 1864 that there was a deficit of between £800 million and £900 million—I hasten to correct the date that I gave, in advance of its being done by Hansard: the date should have been 1964. A memorable statistic in both senses!