§ 2.39 p.m.
§ Lord COTTESLOEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether there is any truth in a report that appeared in the public Press on 20th November 1976 that a proposal is under consideration to close the Royal Postgraduate Medical School at Hammersmith Hospital and the Clinical Research Centre at Northwick Park.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLNo, my Lords; there is no truth in the Press report to which the noble Lord refers. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science assures me that there is no proposal whatever to close the Royal Postgraduate Medical School and the Clinical Research Centre. Nor is there a proposal to close the Hammersmith and Northwick Park Hospitals with which they are associated. The report appears to have originated from fears expressed by the North-West Thames Regional Health Authority that rapid implementation of some of the recommendations of the Resource Allocation Working Party could lead to the closure of one or more of the six major centres of teaching and research in that region. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State is consulting health authorities and other interested bodies on the recommendations of the Working Party.
§ Lord COTTESLOEMy Lords, may I thank the Minister for that reply, and ask him whether he is aware how much satisfaction it will give to those at Hammersmith and Northwick Park to know what he has said?—because there have been very widespread fears and alarms as a result of this Press report.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for those comments.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that this medical school occupies a quite unique position in the 273 field of medical research, and that if economies are being contemplated, it would be worth making them in other directions, rather than sacrifice any of the superlatively high standards which have been consistently maintained at this hospital?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, my right honourable friend is fully aware of the importance of the contribution made by both of these hospitals, and would obviously take that contribution into account.
§ Lord LEATHERLANDMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that some of the very misleading stories that have been appearing in the Press recently, regarding the closure of hospitals, are causing great distress to people who are employed in those hospitals? Can he therefore do one of two things: either issue an official statement for publication, showing which hospitals are under consideration for closure; or, alternatively, provide a document for the guidance of newspapers so that they will not go astray in future?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, in reply to my noble friend, I would remind your Lordships that I have said that consultations will take place between regional health authorities and other bodies involved. My right honourable friend has asked the regional health authorities to let him have by the early part of next year a statement of the needs of each regional health authority over the next 10 years; and, as I said, no action will be taken without consultation. In reply to the second part of my noble friend's question, I understand that the misleading article in the Daily Telegraph was printed without clearance with the regional health authority, and that, I believe, is largely why it was made.
§ Lord SANDYSMy Lords, arising out of the Government's reply regarding the original Question on Hammersmith Hospital, has the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, anything to add on the rebuilding aspect about which he replied to a Question put by my noble friend Lord Cottesloe on 29th July, 1975? It would add to our confidence in the rest of his reply if the noble Lord could say something about that aspect.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, at this stage I am not in a position to make any further comment, apart from the one that I made on that occasion.
§ Lord LEATHERLANDMy Lords, although I do not want to prolong this Question, may I ask my noble friend whether he is aware of the fact that it is not only the two hospitals mentioned in this Question which are the subject of newspaper stories? Stories about the wholesale closure of hospitals in all parts of the country have been run not only in the daily newspapers but in almost every local newspaper that one cared to pick up.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, the whole purpose of the Resource Allocation Working Party is to consider the needs of the country as a whole. We have to face the fact that hospital services and facilities in the South of England, and particularly in London, are far better than they are in other parts of the country. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State is looking at the needs of the country as a whole, which may well mean that certain services in both London and the South of England will have to be re-evaluated and that certain steps will then have to be taken. It has been known for a long time that there are certain hospitals which, by virtue of their location and of the fact that they are under-used, could be closed. This is one of the factors at which we are looking so that we can offer a far better service in those places where the need is greater.
§ Lord SLATERMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that in view of his exhaustive reply, upon which he ought to be complimented, it would be advisable for his Department to send a letter to the superintendents in charge of the hospitals under consideration so that it can be put up on the notice board? In view of the wrong statements which have been made in the Press, this would be a means of doing away with any form of apprehension on the part of the medical staff and others who work in those hospitals and the trade unions.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am grateful for my noble friend's comments and observations. May I repeat that whatever the final outcome of the re-appraisal of the medical services in this 275 country may be, no final action will be taken without consultation with the regional health authorities in respect of the hospitals within their areas.
§ Viscount HANWORTHMy Lords, will the Minister bear in mind that there is still a long waiting list for entrance to hospitals? Whatever the causes may be, would not the Minister agree that we should avoid taking any irreversible action regarding the closure of hospitals when the other problems which prevent people from getting into hospital promptly have not been solved? Will the Minister also comment on the fact that it seems strange that we are now closing private pay beds when the reason given for closing them was that apparently there was insufficient room for National Health Service patients in hospitals?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, in reply to the second part of the noble Viscount's question, I thought it had been agreed with the medical profession that the first 1,000 beds which the Government have decided to remove within the first six months were not being used. With regard to the first part of the question, I tried to point out a moment or two ago that obviously my right honourable friend the Secretary of State is not likely to encourage the closing of a hospital or hospitals in areas where there is obviously a need and where people are awaiting treatment.
§ Lord COTTESLOEMy Lords, to revert to the original Question, is the Minister aware how happy it makes me that his original reply has saved me from having to ask him a number of supplementaries which I thought I might have to ask?
§ Lord ANNANMy Lords, will the noble Lord agree that it is a bad principle of government if one Department of State, namely, the Department of Health and Social Security, takes decisions about hospitals in the London area without consultation with the Department of Education and Science? Would not the noble Lord agree that it is very hard for the University of London and its teaching hospitals to balance their budgets if decisions are taken by the DHSS, without consultation with these teaching hospitals, which have a direct effect upon the bud- 276 gets of these hospitals? Would the noble Lord therefore feel that such consultation between these two Departments of State is necessary if rational decisions are to be taken?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I thought that I had made it perfectly clear in my reply to the noble Lord, Lord Cottesloe, that there is close co-operation between my right honourable friend in the DHSS and his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science. I think we would agree that there cannot be any decision until all the people who are interested and concerned have been consulted.