§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Leader of the House whether, since the House of Commons is not sitting, it is the intention of the Government to make Statements in this House during this week on matters on which it is said Ministers are going to make statements outside this House?
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, in my view the question of whether the House of Commons is sitting is utterly irrelevant. 9 Parliament is now sitting because your Lordships' House is now sitting and, therefore, any matters which normally call for a Government Statement will be announced in your Lordships' House. I understand through the usual channels that noble Lords opposite have been informed of a Statement that it is intended to make tomorrow. Press Statements are perhaps different. I understand that in the light of certain allegations that were made in the Daily Telegraph today, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland intends to issue a personal Statement in regard to those allegations. I take the view that this is not something for your Lordships' House, but I will look at what he intends to say to see whether it ought to be repeated here. But I give the noble Lord this very firm assurance, that the fact that this House is sitting means, in my view—and I think my colleagues would accept this—that we should have an opportunity of having Statements made here as though the House of Commons itself were sitting.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord the Leader of the House. With regard to the Statement, or whatever it may be, which the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is to make, I should have thought—and I think most of those on these Benches would agree—that what the Secretary of State has to say is as a Government Minister, and is of the greatest possible importance in our relations with Northern Ireland, and I believe your Lordships would expect that Statement to be repeated here.
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, I might have been in a better position to reply to the noble Lord if I had received earlier notice that this matter was to be raised, and that there was any question in regard to the proposed Press Statement of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. As I have said to the noble Lord, I have asked for a sight of that Statement. I understand that his colleague in another place has been made aware of the matter, and once I have seen that Statement I will consult to see whether it should be repeated here. I think that one has to use some discretion as to the Statements that are made and as to their character, but I will 10 look into the matter and will consult with the noble Lord.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, I hope that the noble Lord will acquit me of any discourtesy in not giving him any earlier notice, because it is hardly likely that the Opposition will know what Statements are to be made by the Government. As a matter of fact, I happened to have heard it myself on the 2 o'clock BBC news and it was difficult to give the noble Lord any notice other than the one I gave him before the House met. But I would say to the noble Lord that I think it quite likely that if he decides that he will not make a Statement I shall find it necessary to put down a Private Notice Question.
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, the noble Lord does not need to put it quite so strongly as that, if I may say so. Over many years, we have had to consult each other in regard to what Statements should or should not be made; some may be in the interest of the House in terms of our timetable, but that does not arise today. I was aware of a private statement Press release by the Secretary of State. It did not seem to me at that stage that it was one that fell within the category of a Statement to Parliament. However, I said that I will look at it and I shall do so. I am willing to consult with the noble Lord, and I hope he will agree with me that, certainly, I have always sought to be a servant of this House and not its master.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lord, quite apart from personal statements—and, of course, if they are truly personal they are in a different category—may we have an assurance that any Government Statements which are made are made first to this House, before being given to the Press?
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, I thought that in my first response to the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, I gave that assurance.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, the noble Lord the Leader of the House used the term "personal statement", but if another place was meeting and a Minister or any Member of the House was making a personal statement then that statement would have to be submitted to Mr. Speaker for his approval. So I take it 11 that when the noble Lord the Leader of the House used the term "personal statement" he was using it in a wider context and not in a Parliamentary sense.
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, that is so.
§ Lord HAILSHAM OF SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, without seeking in any way to prejudge the question, the noble Lord has used the expression "personal statement" but, unless I am mistaken, he gave us to understand that the statement related to certain allegations in today's Daily Telegraph. When he comes to consider the question as to whether this House should not be informed, will he bear in mind that today's Daily Telegraph made very specific allegations about a senior official of the Department, and therefore not simply about the Minister in his personal capacity? When allegations of that kind are applied to officials for whom the Minister is responsible, can a statement be purely personal in the sense that Parliament ought not to be informed about it?
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, I intended to indicate to the House that I had very little knowledge that this matter was being raised. I have to say to the noble and learned Lord that I have not myself read the allegations that are printed in the Daily Telegraph. I was merely responding to information that was made available to me while I sat on this Bench. I hope the House will show a degree of fairness in this matter and will leave it to me, in consultation with the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, to decide whether a statement ought to be made here. I think this is a matter which can satisfactorily be dealt with through the usual channels.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, I do not want to press the noble Lord too much, but perhaps it is unfortunate that the term "personal statement" has been used at all, because in my knowledge a personal statement is not subject to debate at all. Therefore, it is important in the course 'of the next few hours to determine whether this is a purely personal statement or whether it is a Government Statement, in which case it will have to be debated.
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, perhaps I used the term "personal statement" in a non-Parliamentary sense. I understood that certain allegations had been made about the Secretary of State himself and that he wished to reply to them. I suggest that we should leave this matter there. We will consult through the usual channels. I will certainly see that the available information is made known to noble Lords opposite, and if they so wish we will arrange for a Statement to be made here. This is what I suggested at the outset and I do not think that to press this matter any further will do your Lordships' House much good.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, will the noble Lord, just for a moment, reconsider what he said? It is all right as far as it goes, but when he says that he will consult with the Front Bench opposite and will then consider jointly whether the Statement shall be made in this House, that is absolutely monstrous. If the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland wishes to refute a statement made in the Daily Telegraph, so be it: if he wishes to make a personal statement that is a matter for the Speaker. But the question of whether or not there should be a Statement in this House must be the responsibility of the Government, which is not shared with the Opposition because they have no part to play.
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, the responsibility is not the Government's, but that of the Leader of the House. The practice in your Lordships' House is that we do most, if not all, by consultation. Without consultation in your Lordships' House, very little works here. Therefore, I suggest that we leave this matter and proceed with the next business.
§ Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYEMy Lords, before we leave this matter, may I ask the noble Lord the Leader of the House to make clear whether this Press statement is to be issued today, or not until this House has heard the Statement? If it is to be issued today, would it not be more proper for the Statement to be made first in this House, even though we interrupt our Business to hear it?
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, I have indicated to the House that I was not 13 aware of the situation and, obviously, the noble Lord did not understand what I said. I was not aware, nor am I at this moment aware, of the context of this Statement. I was responding to a question put by the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, on information given to me while I was sitting on this Bench. I am at the disposal of the House and will consult with the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, as to whether this Statement ought to be repeated. I cannot go any further than I have gone already.
§ Lord DUNCAN-SANDYSMy Lords, for the convenience of the House, could we perhaps be told the subject of the other Government Statement which is to be made tomorrow?
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, that is not usual. The noble Lord, Lord Carrington, himself is aware of it.
§ The Earl of ONSLOWMy Lords, will the noble Lord the Leader of the House recall how cross his Front Bench was two years ago during the miners' strike, when the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, made a statement to the Press? Will he recall how hot under the collar they got? When they think of fairness and consultation, will noble Lords bear that in mind and practise what they preached then?
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, my memory of that occasion is very clear. It was more involved than the matter we now have before us, so I suggest that the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, should not pursue that point.