HL Deb 31 October 1975 vol 365 cc838-41

[Nos. 63 to 71]

Clause 26, page 17, line 2, leave out ("subsections are") and insert ("subsection is")

Clause 26, page 17, line 10, at end insert—

("(aa) the following subsections are inserted after subsection (1)")

Clause 26, page 17, line 12, leave out ("in") and insert ("only as respects")

Clause 26, page 17, line 13, leave out ("outside England and Wales") and insert ("in Scotland")

Clause 26, page 17, line 18, leave out ("in") and insert ("only as respects")

Clause 26, page 17, line 19, leave out ("outside Scotland") and insert ("in England or Wales")

Clause 26, page 17, line 29, at end insert ("and for the words "one hundred pounds" there are substituted the words "£400"")

Clause 26, page 17, line 30, leave out paragraph (c) and insert—

("(c) the following subsection is substituted for subsection (5)— (5) Section 16 of the Children Act 1975 shall apply where a person is convicted of a contravention of subsection (1) of this section as it applies where an application for an adoption order is refused."")

Clause 26, page 17, line 36, leave out from second ("of") to ("the" in line 39 and insert ("the adoption order (whether or not he knows the identity of the applicant,")

4.8 p.m.

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 63 to 71, which, subject to your Lordships' permission, I should like to take en bloc. In dealing with these matters, I should like first to deal with Amendments Nos. 63 to 71 in Part I and to discuss at the same time․

Lord ELTON

Did I hear the noble Lord mention Amendment 77?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

I do not think that we can go quite as far as that. I think I shall have to put Amendments Nos. 63 to 71 en bloc because when we were considering Amendments Nos. 30 to 39—and I hope the noble Lord will tell me if I am not making sense about this—I referred to Amendment No. 72 and I talked to that Amendment. So I am advised that I shall have to put that seperately. Therefore, I propose to move en bloc Nos. 63 to 71 and in doing so I should like to talk to Amendments Nos. 94 to 96 and to Scottish Amendments Nos. 101 to 103 and 110 to 112A in Part II.

Lord ELTON

My Lords, I think it is as well, since the noble Lord will not be here on Wednesday, to put it on record that it may be necessary to go over some of the ground again when it comes to the Scottish Amendments, because I simply have not been able to take a view on the implications for Scotland beyond the point we have now reached. My noble friend Lady Elliot will be here next Wednesday and it may well be she will have questions to raise then. I hope it will not be out of order for her to do so. I do not think there is anything to prevent the noble Lord speaking to these Amendments, provided it is not taken by the Chair to mean that those Amendments cannot be spoken to again when we resume on Wednesday.

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, with respect, it will be all right if they are not moved, and I do not know whether we are going to get to Nos. 110 and 112. If we do, the obvious thing is that I must not move them and then they will be available for your Lordships to discuss next Wednesday.

Lord ELTON

My Lords, this is becoming rather difficult. I am told that once you reach a point on the list you cannot reverse. We are in a genuine difficulty here because I do not know the content of these Amendments though some of my noble friends may be aware of them. I think there are only four Amendments before we are due to stop. If it is the noble Lord's intention to stop at No. 114, perhaps we could stop at No. 110. This is a procedural difficulty about getting to the end of Part II.

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, I was about to make the same observation. Perhaps it would be better to stop at No.100. I shall not then be taking any of the Scottish Amendments so that when the House considers this matter again they can start at Amendment No. 101.

Lord ELTON

My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord.

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, Amendments Nos.77 and 96—and I will not refer to No. 112A—give the court power to order the return of children taken away illegally pending the hearing of certain applications for adoption and custodianship orders—which are custody orders in Scotland. If the order is not obeyed, the court may authorise an officer of the court to search premises and return the child or a justice of the peace may authorise a constable to do the same.

Amendments Nos. 69 and 95 are the first of a number of Amendments which raise maximum penalties in the Bill and other children's legislation to £400. In another place this was thought to be a much more realistic figure and I think many of your Lordships will agree. I will not read out all the Amendments in which there are penalties but there are a large number. The point I want to make is that the penalty has been increased to £400. I do not think there is any necessity to say anything more on that.

Moved, That the House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amedments. —(Lord Wells-Pestell.)

Lord ELTON

My Lords, this seems a sensible way of proceeding and the grouping of 63 to 71 is easier to cope with. My noble friend Lord Sandys would like to make a few comments.

Lord SANDYS

The noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, has spoken to Amendment No. 96 and there is one point I would like to raise. When an application is made for a search warrant and evidence is taken on oath and such evidence proves satisfactory the justice of the peace may issue a search warrant to a constable to search premises for a child. In this instance the question I would like to ask the noble Lord is whether a search warrant can apply to more than one house or premises at a time. Naturally, this power will be used with great discretion by the justices concerned, and I wonder whether normally a warrant is issued for one premise or domicile at a time.

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, having been in the position in the past of issuing such things, I should have thought it was in relation to one specific address. I think the addresses have to be inserted. My information is that I am right. A search warrant names the premises one at a time.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT

[No. 72]

Clause 26, page 17, line 43, leave out from ("application") to ("is") in line 45 and insert ("is pending for an order under section 14 of the Children Act 1975 and—

  1. (a) the child is in the care of the adoption agency making the application, and
  2. (b) the application was not made with the consent of each parent or guardian of the child,
no parent or guardian of the child who did not consent to the application").

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 72.

Moved, that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.— (Lord Wells-Pestell.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.