HL Deb 30 October 1975 vol 365 cc610-3
Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it has been arranged to sell the Government of Saudi Arabia a large number of modern aircraft and other weapons; and whether it is understood that in the event of a resumption of conflict in the Middle East such weapons can be transferred to Arab countries involved.

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, it has been the policy of successive Governments not to give details about the sale of British defence equipment. The Government's policy on arms sales to the Middle East was explained to the noble Lord on 20th June by my noble friend Lord Goronwy-Roberts. All equipment supplied by the Ministry of Defence to an overseas Government is for the sole use of the customer country. Where it is considered appropriate manufacturers in the private sector are required to include a similar clause in their contracts.

Lord SHINVVELL

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the conventional reply which he has given about the need for maintaining security is now completely outmoded, and that we expect a little more open government and disclosure of the facts? Will he agree that the provision of a vast quantity of arms to Saudi Arabia cannot possibly make any contribution to peace in the Middle East? Is he aware that there is serious apprehension about a recurrence of the trouble, which was contributed to by President Sad at before the United Nations Assembly when, instead of preaching peace, he indulged in language which savoured of fire and brimstone?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I can only repeat the policy of successive Governments which is not irrelevant, but very relevant indeed.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that almost every reputable newspaper has reported that in the course of the discussions between the representatives of Saudi Arabia and Her Majesty's Government the subjects of the supply of arms and trade were discussed? It was not a social event. Therefore, why should there be any concealment about it? Is there any special reason why, or is this an ambivalent attitude of Her Majesty's Government, pretending to be friends with Israel and at the same time using a dagger to stick into the back of the Israelis? Is that the kind of attitude we expect from Her Majesty's Government?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, the friendship of Her Majesty's Government is surely towards the British people.

Lord ALPORT

My Lords, will the noble Lord draw the attention of some of his noble friends behind him to the fact that the supply of arms to another country gives to the supplying nation an influence over the policies of the countries to which the arms are supplied, which is far greater than it would be if some other country supplied them with arms? In fact, it is most important that we should not allow all the arms used in the Middle East to be supplied by Russia or China, or some Power of that sort.

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I think that that remark is true and relevant.

Lord JANNER

My Lords, may I ask a simple question—perhaps too simple for my noble friend to answer? What fear has Saudi Arabia at the present time of anyone attacking her? Why does she need arms? Is she afraid that somebody in her own territory is going to attack somebody or other? If not, why on earth should we supply arms, when we are in the process at the present time of endeavouring to find ways and means whereby disarmament should take place?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, the fact of life in many areas is that if we are asked to supply arms and refuse other people will supply them. Arms are a standard unit of trade, and what we supply will be guided by the general rule for British goods laid down by Her Majesty's Government—namely, that our overriding objective in the Middle East is a just and lasting settlement between the Arabs and Israel—and by the points made in reply to my noble friend.

Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON

My Lords, arising out of the question asked by the noble Lord opposite, is the noble Lord aware that the supply of oil is giving a formidable influence to the oil suppliers on the policies of the countries receiving oil, and that this flow of arms to the Middle East is a dangerous symptom of that oil influence? Has the noble Lord considered the situation of a nuclear nation, such as France, if Saudi Arabia says that it will only accept nuclear arms as currency in exchange for oil?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, that is spreading the Question far too wide.

Lord BARNBY

My Lords, reverting to some of the earlier replies of the Minister in which he referred to the limitation of further ownership of any items, as it is possible to have any number of units of a prototype for a certain purpose from two or three countries, how would the suggestion that arms are supplied specifically on condition that they are not transferred apply? If they retain what is received under those conditions, they can equally easily transfer prototypes received from elsewhere, with the same amount of fighting power.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, in view of the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Alport, which seemed to me somewhat biased, can he produce any evidence of any country over which we have exerted influence after the provision of arms?

Lord ALPORT

My Lords, if it would help the Minister in any way, I should be glad to give the evidence to the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, afterwards.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, may I have an answer to my question? Since the question was put by the noble Lord, I asked whether there was any evidence to justify what he said. That is all. Can the Minister reply?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, this is a subject of many facets, and I suggest that if the noble Lord wishes to discuss it in depth he should put down either a Motion for a debate or an Unstarred Question.

Lord WIGG

My Lords, is my noble friend not aware that a perfect example of one country controlling the policy of another, or influencing it in a major respect, is the spate of equipment which is supplied by the United States to Israel?

Lord BESWICK

My Lords, perhaps we could now proceed to the next Question?

Lord JANNER

Before doing so, my Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he is aware—

Several Noble Lords: No!