§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of reports that Indonesian military personnel have invaded Timor, they ask the United Nations Security Council to consider this threat to peace and security and to take the necessary action.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)My Lords, in the absence of any British representation in the area, Her Majesty's Government have no independent means of verifying the reports which the noble Lord has mentioned, though I understand that the Indonesian official news agency has now reported one clash near the border. I also understand that the Indonesian Foreign Minister is shortly to have talks with the Portuguese Foreign Minister about Timor. I welcome this. I do not think in the circumstances that an initiative by Her Majesty's Government at the United Nations would be helpful, but we shall keep in close touch with those countries most closely involved in the situation.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. Is he aware that there has been evidence for a fortnight now that Indonesian troops have been in Timor, and that Indonesian naval vessels have stormed the territory? Would he add to his statement about the official statement yesterday? Is it not a fact that yesterday the official news agency in Jakarta acknowledged that Indonesian troops were engaged six miles within Timor and, if this is the case, surely it is a matter in which the United Nations Security Council should intervene.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, this is one of those circumstances where evidence is obviously something that comes from both sides. There is evidence from Freitilin and from the Indonesian Government. As I have said, we have no representation on the spot to test which evidence is most credible.
150 As to the statement issued yesterday from Jakarta, which is reported in today's Times and which I regard as probably being well founded, the report said that the,
'unavoidable'clash took place after Freitilin forces attacked Indonesian security posts in an attempt to infiltrate Indonesian Timor and carry out foraging raids. The Freitilin forces were repelled".That is the information which I have. But perhaps more hopeful from my noble friend's point of view, certainly mine, is the statement by Mr. Malik the Indonesian Foreign Minister, that he is to meet Major Antunes of the Portuguese Government this week—probably, it is said, on Thursday or Friday—to discuss the peaceful future of this part of the world. Mr. Malik has said that what is urgent is the restoration of peace and order as soon as possible.
Baroness VICKERSMy Lords, does the Minister agree that Indonesia respects the right of self-determination of the people of Portuguese Timor; and has neither any territorial nor any other claim whatsoever on this colony, which was not part of Indonesian territory when Indonesian independence was declared in 1945. The only action, as I understand it, which Indonesia has taken is to give refuge to 50,000 refugees from Portuguese Timor. Does the noble Lord agree that it is up to Portugal to refer the matter to the United Nations Security Council if there has been any violation of their territory?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I entirely agree that the official Indonesian attitude is that they have no designs at all on this territory, and so far, I am bound to say, they have acted in conformity with their statements to us. I have said, carefully I hope, that the evidence of who started what on the border is not of such a nature that we can come to a snap decision. But I have every confidence that the Indonesian Government will stand by their declared policy, which is self-determination, democratic determination, in Timor. That is our policy. I hope it is the policy of everybody concerned, including Freitilin.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, while greatly appreciating the fullness of the Minister's answer, may I ask him this further question? Could we not act in 151 association with the Australian Government, which is very deeply involved in this issue? Just as the Secretary-General of the United Nations has helpfully intervened in the trouble in Spanish Sahara, where there has been no military action, is it not desirable that the United Nations should intervene in this place, where there has been military action?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, it is indeed eminently desirable, and in fact the Secretary-General of the United Nations made an appeal towards the end of August, that everybody should refrain from interfering in the internal affairs of Timor so that a peaceful democratic solution could be attained there. Unfortunately, his appeal was not listened to by, among others, the organisations which the noble Lord has in mind. As to our taking an initiative, I would ask the noble Lord and your Lordships to consider this point. There are countries more immediately involved in this area; my noble friend has quite rightly mentioned one. Australia is clearly very closely concerned with what happens in this area; so is Indonesia. It would be, I suggest, somewhat invidious if an initiative in the United Nations were taken by the United Kingdom, when in fact those countries most closely involved have not so far seen fit to take such an initiative themselves.