§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have any plans to help the United Kingdom shipbuilding industry during the present world-wide recession in orders for ships of all types.
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, the Government are discussing the situation with managements and trade unions in the shipbuilding industry. I am not yet in a position to announce any plans, but we recognise the urgency of the matter.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that reply, may I ask whether the Government would consider calling an international conference, perhaps among the ten nations most closely concerned with this desperately serious world-wide position? This is a matter for urgency, since every 144 month the recession becomes more deep and more serious.
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, there have been some discussions but I will see that the precise point put by the noble Lord is considered.
§ Lord BLYTONMy Lords, does the noble Lord not agree that, as we have been giving public money to shipbuilding, now that the ship repairing industry is in distress we must not pay public money to private enterprise without taking it over for the taxpayer?
§ Lord BESWICKYes, my Lords. Considerable public money has been put into the different companies and, as my noble friend is aware, in the next Session of Parliament there will be a Bill to bring the whole of the shipbuilding industry into public ownership.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDEMy Lords, may I ask the Minister how long the shipbuilding and ship repairing industries will have to wait before the conference to which the noble Lord has referred will be held? Is the noble Lord aware that part of the difficulty is presumably due to the fact that nationalisation is in the offing, and would it not be very much better for the shipbuilding industry if that part of the Government's programme was now destroyed for ever?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I am not quite sure that I follow the remarks made by the noble Baroness.
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I will not tempt the noble Baroness, but I draw her attention to the fact that since 1965 under private ownership the different companies have had £170 million worth of public money in addition to £80 million per annum given through the shipbuilding home credit scheme. This has been found not to work, and it is about time we tried something else.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, are our principal competitors, those who in Japan have driven us out of the market, privately or publicly owned?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, they are private companies competing against private companies here who did not do so well.
§ Lord ABERDAREMy Lords, will the noble Lord recognise that throughout the world the shipbuilding companies have had subsidies from their own Governments, and that all shipbuilding companies are paying their taxes from the profits that they have been making? Will the noble Lord assure us that, quite apart from any differences there may be on political matters, such as nationalisation, the Government will give real priority to the great difficulties facing these industries at present?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I am much obliged for the conciliatory note struck by the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare. It is a fact that there are difficulties elsewhere, but it is also a fact that we have tried one method of helping, and are now proposing to try another. The temporary expedients which might be possible, and the restriction of capacity, are something which might well be considered on an international basis.
§ Lord IRONSIDEMy Lords, are the Government aware that a period of recession in the shipbuilding industry is an ideal time to concentrate on matters of research and development in the industry? Is the noble Lord aware of the efforts of the Greenwich Forum, with which I am indirectly connected, in advocating further development in the industry? Also, does the noble Lord note that members or observers of his own Department are also attending this particular conference from time to time? Would he say whether he feels that the efforts of the Greenwich Forum are having an influence in this direction?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I cannot answer the particular point about the Greenwich Forum. I am aware we are making an effort to improve or increase research in this field, but even more important is the application of what is established in the actual industry.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDEMy Lords, may I just ask about the suggestion of trying a new idea in order to help the industry? Since the nationalised industries are losing 146 money, why try that kind of new idea?—because it is a very bad one.
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, the fact of the matter is that under private ownership these companies also lost money.
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, Harland and Wolff could not pay their way under private ownership, Cammell Laird could not pay their way, and are now 50 per cent. owned; Sunderland Shipbuilders could not pay their way under private enterprise; Appledore also faced financial difficulties; Govan Shipyard could not pay their way. It is for these reasons we have decided that all the shipyards should be brought under public ownership.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, would the noble Lord the Minister note that he has totally failed to make any case at all for nationalising the ship repairing industry? These companies have not had aid from the Government. They have made considerable profits. They need great flexibility and a quick reaction time. This is unlikely to arise from the heavy hand of nationalisation. Would the noble Lord bear in mind that even our shipbuilding industry is not in any way asking for any greater terms than are given in competitive countries overseas? They ask only that they be given a chance to earn their living in an efficient industry which is helped as much as other countries help their own industries.
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, may I direct the attention of the noble Lord, Lord Orr-Ewing, to the Question he has on the Order Paper, which refers to shipbuilding and not ship repairing? Can I not expect from his Parliamentary experience that he will expect me to stick to his Question?
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, as the noble Lord opposite referred particularly to ship repairing, I felt it logical to follow in the views taken from his own side of the House.
§ Lord STRATHCLYDEMy Lords, will the noble Lord the Minister take note of the fact that Scott Lithgow and Yarrow are both profitable concerns, with large order books? I understand that they are threatened with being taken over as well.
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, it is a fact that there are some yards which specialise in military ships which are doing rather better.
§ Lord BLYTONMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the Opposition believe that competition is the great factor in the life of capitalism although firms have failed in the face of competition? Can we expect the public of England to give public subscription out of national funds without taking advice on what we are doing with it?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, so far as the Government are concerned, the answer is "No". I agree with the point behind the question of the noble Lord, Lord Blyton.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, in the light of the experience we have had since 1945, could the noble Lord explain simply to the House why he thinks nationalisation will make things better?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, if the Leader of the Opposition would care to put down a Question, I will do my best to answer it.