HL Deb 23 October 1975 vol 364 cc1605-7

3.22 p.m.

Lord JANNER

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have powers under Section 2 of the Animals (Restriction of Importation) Act 1964 to restrict the importation into the United Kingdom of live tortoises and terrapins; and if so whether, in view of the cruelty frequently involved in such importations, such action will be taken in the near future.

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, the import of live tortoises and terrapins is already controlled under Section 2 of the Animals (Restriction of Importation) Act 1964. However, the purpose of that Act is to conserve endangered species and not to deal with the welfare of animals in transit. That is covered by the Transit of Animals (General) Order 1973, which makes it an offence to carry living creatures to this country under conditions likely to cause unnecessary suffering.

Lord JANNER

My Lords, is my noble friend in a position to say whether any action at all is proposed to be taken, particularly in view of the fact that in a recent assignment of tortoises innumerable casualties occurred and a considerable amount of injury was sustained by the rest? The matter is of some considerable concern to a large number of people. Is there nothing the Government themselves can do, or will do, in the circumstances?

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, I respect the concern expressed by my noble friend, and certainly share it. The position in general has improved a great deal because far fewer tortoises are being imported into this country than there were three years ago. The figures have more or less halved over that period of time. There also have been some very favourable moves concerning the Council of Europe Convention on the Protection of Animals in International Transport, which applies to any animals being carried within Europe, and the International Air Transport Association have published a useful guide to their members as to how they should carry all types of animals, and that has been made mandatory since 1st February this year.

The Earl of ONSLOW

My Lords, have any prosecutions arisen out of these cases of deaths of tortoises—and certainly the large number of parakeets, incidentally, which were found dead at London Airport transit lounge within the last three weeks?

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, I gather that one of the problems is that there are legal difficulties in prosecuting carriers who are not registered in this country. But consideration is being given to alternative methods of enforcing our legal requirements in relation to foreign airlines operating both to and from this country. We also take particular care to draw to IATA's attention any breaches in their regulations which, as I have said, are now mandatory and it is of course for them to enforce their requirements.

Lord JANNER

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the reply he has given does not answer the position I pointed out a moment or two ago? The fact is that there is considerable cruelty, with the result that a large number of these tortoises die en route and others are put under very severe pressure. If the law is not sufficient to protect the position now, will he do something in order to introduce a provision which will protect these unfortunate creatures?

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, as I understand it my noble friend is not talking about carriers who carry the animals incorrectly packed, but is saying that the carrying of exotic species to this country is likely to cause suffering. If that is the case I personally agree with him. The answer seems to me either to stop people from keeping exotic species as pets—and we certainly do not have power under the existing enactments to do that—or, a preferable solution, to educate people so that they did not want to keep these animals as pets.

The Earl of ONSLOW

My Lords, is it not really possible to bring any action against somebody who brings, either in transit or directly into this country, animals which then die in thousands at London Airport transit centre? With the greatest respect, I would hope that the noble Lord would agree with me that it is a disgrace if we cannot.

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, it depends who the carrier is. As I have said, there are legal difficulties in prosecuting carriers who are not registered in this country; but we are looking into that matter with considerable urgency. There are other regulations, as I have said, such as IATA's code. It is possible if a breach of their provisions is proved for IATA to expel the carrier and to fine him. The noble Earl is making a face about that, but I understand it would carry very serious repercussions for an airline which was expelled from IATA. It is a serious sanction and, as I say, these provisions were introduced only at the beginning of this year.

The Earl of CRANBROOK

My Lords, will the noble Lord not agree that almost the whole of the legislation in this field, from the Pet Animals Act 1951 onwards, is hopelessly out of date and should be reviewed?

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, I have mentioned in previous replies two provisions which have come into force very recently, one on 1st February, and the Council of Europe's regulations which cover traffic within Europe. The problem is that there is a limit to the amount we in this country can do because the animals are packed in other countries overseas. As I have suggested, the best thing we can do in this country is to decrease our demand for these animals.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, would it not be possible for the World Health Organisation or the International Labour Office to make an international contribution on this matter?

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, it may well be possible. Certainly I believe that the most effective action can be taken only at an international level.