HL Deb 22 October 1975 vol 364 cc1416-20
Lord DE CLIFFORD

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress has been made in the research programme into the problem of massive sheets of dangerous mud and spray thrown up by multi-wheeled vehicles travelling at high speeds, and whether they have any proposals to mitigate this danger during the coming winter.

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, in addition to the research into this problem which is being undertaken by Southampton University, the Department has reviewed existing data and carried out practical tests to see whether mudguards can be made more effective. We believe that some improvement is possible, and have arranged discussions with the motor industry on how best to achieve it.

Lord DE CLIFFORD

My Lords, may I thank the noble Lord for his reply, which to me sounds like one of those rather slow and dreary methods of producing a good answer. But are we really, year after year, as bad weather approaches, to have to listen to our radios and hear the police warning people of mud and spray being thrown up by vehicles driving at high speeds on motor ways? If we are, I feel that we should take some steps to expedite, as speedily as possible, all the research which is going on.

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, this is not a simple matter; if it were, no doubt something would have been done much more quickly. The fact is that research which has been undertaken shows that little can be done with mudguards, mud flaps or any other change in the construction of vehicles, because the speed at which a vehicle travels makes much more difference to the amount of spray or mud thrown up, than does any change in its construction. What is important is that people should drive at a sensible speed when it is wet.

Lord FERRIER

My Lords, can the noble Lord say to what extent the tyre manufacturers are involved in these re search discussions?

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, I think it is more a matter of the road surface than of the tyre construction. Research is being done on alternative road surfaces which hold less water, because a lot of the water that is thrown up is obviously lying on the surface of the road. Distinct advances have been made in that line of research.

Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that when going down the Ml these large vehicles throw up a bow-wave which is completely opaque to overtaking vehicles, so that as they overtake they burst through a screen? Is it not possible to devise some form of guard which would prevent that wave going out on the offside? That is where the danger lies, so could something come down on the outside of the wheel to prevent them spraying outwards?

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, re search has shown that most of the water and spray is thrown out sideways, so it would be necessary to enclose the sides of the tyres. I understand it is impossible to do that, without affecting the braking capabilities and various other important safety factors concerned with the tyres and the axles of large vehicles, because of the heat generated by entirely enclosing the wheels. The answer, I would say, if a large vehicle is going very fast and throwing out lots of spray, is not to attempt to overtake it.

Lord DE CLIFFORD

My Lords, would the noble Lord accept that the throwing out of this massive amount of spray creates a screen through which no driver can see, and could not a driver of such a vehicle be considered as driving without due care? Would the noble Lord perhaps prod the motorway police, so that when they see things like this happening they take steps either to prosecute or to caution drivers on their driving?

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, the Department of the Environment have certainly informed the Home Office of the results of their research, and in particular of the fact that it is the speed at which vehicles travel which makes most difference to the amount of spray generated. I understand that the police forces patrolling motorways have been advised of these facts, and if in the judgment of the officers on the spot it seems necessary they will use the motor signalling equipment to control speeds of vehicles in difficult weather conditions.

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, if one has followed behind a vehicle which has mud flaps fitted, as opposed to one which has not, one notices that the one with mud flaps is far less beastly to one's vision in bad conditions. Could the noble Lord tell us a little more about the Government's thinking now? His noble friend told us last year that heat was causing trouble with mud flaps, but as I think most of us have noticed that vehicles with mud flaps are not so harmful, can the noble Lord tell us something more?

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, I think my noble friend was referring to mud guards and not mud flaps. I may have misunderstood and perhaps I have got it wrong, but, certainly, research has shown that mud flaps make very little difference; and, if I may say so, the noble Lord's observations has been disproved by scientific observation—which is the object of conducting research in the first place. The difficulties over heat generation arise if one tries to enclose a wheel sufficiently to prevent water being thrown out side ways and, as I have said, research shows that the vast majority of the water and spray is thrown out sideways from the wheel. I said in my original Answer that we feel that certain modifications to vehicles may provide some improvement, and the Department will be holding discussions with the industry the day after tomorrow on that very matter.

Lord CHESHAM

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I have been trying to come to his rescue for some time? Is he also aware that, while we must agree that this is a serious problem, it is also an extremely difficult one? Is he further aware that, although he is technically correct in what he has told us, from my personal knowledge of work which I was privileged to do at the rquest of a previous Minister of Transport, Mrs. Castle, some 10 years ago, I believe that the answer he has given today would have been equally accurate then?

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, first, I was not aware that I needed rescuing, and if that is a rescue I might have been better off without it! I do not honestly think that is so. Research has been conducted at Southampton University in the last 12 months. I am not aware that it was known for certain earlier that most spray is generated by sideways movement rather than being thrown backwards, as the noble Lord opposite said, which is the popular misconception. Also, I do not believe it was known a year ago that the amount of spray is so directly related to the speed at which vehicles travel.

Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware, when he talks of the heat problem, that this does not really arise when there is plenty of water available to cool the heat?

The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Shepherd)

My Lords, before my noble friend endeavours to answer that question, it strikes me that instead of this being a Question Time we are having an exposition of the knowledge of your Lordships on this matter. May I suggest that my noble friend should seek to reply to the last point and we should then move to the next Question, since we have been dealing with two Questions for 15 minutes.

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, the answer is simply that if you put mud flaps on a vehicle they are there during dry weather as well as during wet weather, and there will be overheating during dry weather.