HL Deb 15 October 1975 vol 364 cc984-94

8.2 p.m.

The Earl of KIMBERLEY rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will inform this House how negotiations are progressing with the many different countries concerned on the supersonic corridors and landing rights for the British Airways operation of Concorde aircraft. The noble Earl said: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In view of the importance of Concorde to this country as well as to France, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, will not mind if I spread myself a little around the subject of my Question, but I can assure him that I shall be brief. Concorde is the world's first majorinternational collaborative venture in advanced technology and it is the largest and most complex commercial programme ever undertaken by two countries in peacetime. In one leap it has covered both the sonic and the heat barriers, and for the first time for many years given Europe the lead in commercial aviation which for so long has been dominated by the United States. Concorde will give to the world a new concept of social and international life.

There are some who say that £1,096 million, the total sum spent between the two countries, has been both wasteful and excessive, but let them not forget that 40 per cent. of this cost has been due to inflation and devaluation. Let them also realise the employment that Concorde has provided, the revenue from taxes that it has produced and that if the Olympus engines had not been developed our Sheffield class warships would be without their main power plants. All this expenditure represents only £40 million a year from each country since the conception of Concorde. The United States spent more on its abortive supersonic transport programme in a much shorter time than we spent getting Concorde operational.

In spite of these major break-throughs, Concorde's passage is still somewhat stormy and all the dangers are not yet passed; for instance, Concorde's certificate of airworthiness. The French Concordes have theirs. The British have only one more hurdle to overcome, so far as I know, and that is the temperature shear. I gather from the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, that this has nearly been achieved and if he could confirm it this evening I am sure it would make everybody happy.

With regard to the London-Bahrein route, I understand that this is now in hand, but could the Minister let us know how this ties in with the Australian route, Bahrein being one of the refuelling airports? I should also like to know the position on the landing rights at Kennedy Airport at New York and in Washington, because I feel sure that the main reason for approval not being given for the landing rights in New York is basically sour grapes on the part of the Americans. Perhaps we might have an assurance that if diplomacy will not work in this instance the mailed fist in the velvet glove could be used.

The other people who, I gather, are not terribly co-operative at the moment are the Japanese. I believe that the Japanese anti-Concorde lobby is one of the strongest in the world. But surely Japan Airlines have an option on Concorde. Furthermore, Narita Airport, which was completed two years ago, has not yet been inaugurated but it is eminently suitable for Concorde operations. If, therefore, the Japanese are not going to be very helpful to us, perhaps we could be a little difficult to them and cut their quota of car imports into this country.

Could the Minister also please tell us what the state of play is with Nigeria over the route to South Africa. And with regard to the mildly unfortunate publicity in Tuesday's newspapers over the noise at Heathrow, perhaps the Minister could endeavour to see that in future the Press, and in particular BBC radio, give factual reports—as, for example, in this case. These noise tests were, in fact, proving and training flights. Therefore several different take-off techniques and procedures were carried out.

My last question refers to the traffic conference of IATA over the fare surcharge which was, I believe, held yesterday. Could the noble Lord confirm that it is not going to be more than 20 per cent.? Let us not forget that 150 years ago anew era of transportation came in with the railway engine. At that time the railway engine was preceded by a red flag. Let us not let this happen to Concorde.

8.7 p.m.

Earl FERRERS

My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, has raised an interesting and a very important subject. I agreed so much with what he said when he opened his speech and laid stress on the idea that this is a new form of transport and a new concept. Concorde has always been controversial, not only from the environmental point of view but also from the financial point of view, perhaps just because it is new. Those who have flown in it can only have been greatly impressed by it. I know that I was. I pay tribute to the manufacturers for making it just large enough to stand up in. The extraordinary part of it is that it is just like any other aeroplane.

May I pay tribute to the Government and to the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, for having stood firm on the manufacture of this aircraft when many pressures were brought upon them to abandon it. They were right not to have been influenced by those pressures. For all that, it is agitating that we are in the position, with British Airways going to have three of these aircraft worth about £25 million each and due to start operations in three months' time, that at the moment there is nowhere in which we can drop the aeroplane. Put like that, it is rather frightening, but there are extraneous reasons. I understand that there are four potential routes: London to New York or to Washington, London to South Africa, London to Japan via Russia and London to Bahrein and thereafter to Australia via Singapore. Without question, the trans-Atlantic route is the most important one and it is the route for which the aircraft was originally designed. In trying to obtain landing or traffic rights for this route we must recognise two factors. First, there is a very important and powerful environmental lobby in the United States. Even if it is not big it is immensely powerful. Secondly, there is the reaction from other airlines which undoubtedly will lose traffic. While we should be anxious to gain landing rights from America we must not fail to recognise those two very important points.

I hope that the Government will not be reluctant to point out to United States colleagues that under the Bermuda Agreement, which is the agreement by which we fly to and from America, America earns three times as much as we do by flying around the world, and twice as much as we do by flying across the Atlantic. Obviously, as 70 per cent. of the traffic under that Agreement emanates from the United States, the inclination would be to go on United States aircraft. Therefore, under that agreement it would seem that the United States is getting a fair crack of the whip. My understanding is that the Federal Air Authority, who are responsible for the Federal airports of which Washington is one, are basically well disposed towards the implementation of the Concorde service and are doing their best to be helpful. Of course, New York is a different matter because it is not a Federal airport; it comes under the State authority and is not subject to the jurisdiction of the Federal Air Authority, and obviously it will he less easy to get agreement with New York.

The most important route for our purposes at the moment is that to Bahrain. Although we have not yet got full clearance, I gather this is likely to be forthcoming and is not quite as worrying as it seems, even although British Airways intend to operate this from 21st January. If the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, is able to confirm—if this does not pre-empt any issue, because I would not wish to embarrass him if negotiations are still going on—or to say whether he feels that these discussions are likely to come to a fruitful conclusion before 21st January. that would be extremely helpful. Once the London to Bahrain route is in operation, then it will be possible at a later date to extend the route to Australia and Singapore.

I should be grateful if the noble Lord could say something about South Africa and Tokyo. My understanding is that the South Africa route is virtually a "dead duck", because the only place where the aircraft can land on the way to South Africa is—quite extraordinarily—Lagos, and that at the moment is unsuitable because the runway would have to be lengthened and it would take two years to lengthen it, even if the Nigerians were prepared to do it.

Tokyo, as the noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, has said, is obviously another place where landing rights ought to be obtained, but there, again, there is a colossal environmental lobby—almost larger, I believe, than that in America—and one has to accept that that is a substantial drawback and that one cannot force people. The problem about getting this route is where to land in Russia. Moscow is impossible, because the route from Moscow to Tokyo is too long. I understand that there is a place called Novosibirsk, which is a possibility, but there, again, the runway needs lengthening and one has to have an alternative airport. If the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, could tell us how negotiations are getting on and what progress is likely to be made it would be helpful, but I should have thought it was unrealistic to imagine that there would be any immediate chance of landing there. My advice to the Government—and I hesitate to give any advice over such a delicate matter, and one on which the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, knows far more than I do—would be to keep hammering away (I use that expression gently) at the United States and not to despair even if they do not succeed at the outset. This is the most important route.

Once the Concorde is in service anywhere, once it is seen to be the excellent aircraft that it is, once it is seen that the ozone layer is not mutilated every time the aeroplane goes through it, and once it is seen that every time the aircraft flies every cow within a radius of 100 miles does not slip its calf, then I believe people will come to accept the aircraft and realise that it is a substantial leap forward, and it will then be wanted by other airlines. In this case—and I think this is very important—it is not only high finance that is the cause of the problem. You are really having to alter the hearts and minds of people who feel very concerned about something which is new, which may appear to have an effect upon the environment and which is an emotional issue. You cannot force that, but it is my contention that once you can get the aircraft in service in any part of the world people will gradually realise that it is not quite the bogy it is supposed to be. Therefore, I hope the noble Lord will not be prepared to give up and will not get too anxious if efforts to get landing rights are not immediately successful. I hope that the Government will, nevertheless, quietly go on hammering away until they achieve the desired object.

8.16 p.m.

Lord BESWICK

My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, expressed the hope that I did not mind his raising the matter this evening. Not only do I not mind but I welcome the Question, and I am grateful to him for the constructive way in which he has put his points. Similarly, I should like to thank the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, for the way he has presented his points to me. I shall endeavour, as always I hope, to give the facts as fully as possible.

It has been agreed that British Airways and Air France will start Concorde services simultaneously on 21st January 1976. I have heard it said that there has been some delay on the part of the British Aircraft Corporation in delivering the British aircraft and that this has presented some difficulties to British Airways compared with Air France, and I think I ought to put the record straight for a start. There has been no delay on the part of the British Aircraft Corporation. The fact of the matter is that right from the beginning it was agreed that the first aircraft off the production line would be the French, the second off the line would be British, and each succeeding odd number would be French and each succeeding even number British.

This is an Anglo-French production; some of the parts are made in this country for the French-assembled aircraft, some of the parts are made in France for the British-assembled aircraft and the French get their parts first. Therefore, inevitably, they come off the production line first. At one time the gap was about five weeks; it has been closed by the British company and they will be able to deliver an aircraft to British Airways in time for the start on 21st January 1976. The start will be to Bahrain and, as the noble Earl has said, Bahrain is an important part of the developing route pattern.

There have been certain delays in getting the necessary clearances. In the endurance flying, Concorde made a number of flights between London and Bahrain along supersonic corridors which have been agreed with the countries concerned. Some of these countries have asked for changes to avoid towns, military targets or other special areas by a wider margin. We needed to find a route to meet the requirements of Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Saudi Arabia, but at the same time to satisfy the Concorde's operational needs. It will be understood, therefore, that it has not been a simple operation, but I understand that proposals have been put to all these countries and I am confident that agreement will be reached in good time for that initial flight. This route will be the first regular Concorde service that British Airways will operate. It is important in its own right and, as the noble Earl has said, it is the first leg of the proposed Concorde service to Singapore and Australia. It makes sense therefore, both commercially and for operational reasons, to start with the service to Bahrain.

Then we have to complete the plans for the extension Eastwards of supersonic corridors with India, Indonesia and Australia. It was not possible to reach agreement for supersonic transit of India in time for the endurance flights in the summer, but discussions in respect of the commercial service are continuing. The series of flights last summer between Singapore and Melbourne have demonstrated that Concorde can operate over that distance non-stop and with a good payload. There have been those who have doubted this in the past. It was thought by sonic it would be necessary to have a refuelling stop at Darwin. This is not so. There will be a non-stop flight from Singapore to Melbourne.

The Australian Government have adopted a very helpful and pragmatic attitude to Concorde. The flights already made were over a supersonic corridor agreed with the Australian authorities. This will enable British Airways to carry a satisfactory payload into commercial service. Flights into Melbourne airport should not raise any significant noise problems. However, the Australian decision will depend on the outcome of their consideration of the Environmental Impact Statement. That statement has been laid, and Concorde was warmly welcomed in Australia last summer, and I am hopeful of the outcome of the EIS.

My Lords, I was asked about New York. Obviously, this is a service which will be especially attractive and one in which the savings in time and fatigue will be particularly important. But the applications by British Airways and Air France to operate to the United States of America have to go through the statutory process to assess the impact on the environment of the planned services to New York and Washington. We believe that the best way is to assist the statutory procedure towards a successful conclusion, and this is what we have been doing. The noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, used the phrase "hammering it home with the United States". I am not quite sure whether that is exactly what he said. We have not followed the "hammering" technique. I would rather believe that an aggressive attitude here could be counter-productive, We have given the utmost co-operation to the United States authorities, and have given them all the information absolutely freely. I think we shall get over the various hurdles satisfactorily.

My Lords, I will now indicate the sort of processes involved. In the summer of 1974, informal discussions were held between the British, French and Americans on the technical data required for the Environmental Impact Statement which, of course, the American regulations demand. These were followed in January 1975 by formal talks with the United States Federal Aviation Administration, and the draft Environmental Impact Statement was issued in March.

Time then had to be allowed for representations to be made, and during April 1975 the FAA held extensive public hearings in Washington, New York, and in the Dulles area. Well over 100 organisations and individuals were represented at the hearings, and thousands of people wrote in. The next stage was for the FAA to revise the Environmental Impact Statement in the light of the evidence received, both oral and written, and to seek additional information from the United Kingdom and French Governments. The final Environmental Impact Statement is expected shortly. Further developments depend on that. I hope I have been able to indicate that it was not a simple matter for us to get a "Yea" or "Nay". I hope it will be agreed that what we have been doing has been the most helpful approach to the problem.

I was asked about the service to Japan which, as has been said, will involve a supersonic corridor across the USSR, with a stop at Novosibirsk in Siberia. We shall need to agree not only on a supersonic corridor through the Western parts of the USSR, but also on a suitable alternative aerodrome sufficiently close to Novosibirsk. The environmental impact of Concorde has been discussed very fully between Russian and Anglo-French experts, and a further tripartite meeting is to be held before the end of this year to see what progress has been made towards providing the supersonic corridor and airport facilities that we and the French require. When these matters have been settled across the USSR, we shall then turn to the next stage of getting agreement with the Japanese.

My Lords, I was asked about the route to South Africa. I understand that the routes to the United States of America, Australia and Tokyo will fully use the five Concordes that British Airways have on order. British Airways would have liked to operate Concorde to South Africa, but to be competitive with existing aircraft it is necessary to make no more than one refuelling stop somewhere in West Africa. As of now, there is no runway available that would be suitable for Concorde. I cannot say what attitude the countries of Western Africa might take to a service to South Africa, but clearly, this might also be a problem.

With regard to landing rights generally, traffic rights under the terms of our bilateral air service agreements are mostly already available, subject, in some cases, to commercial arrangements between British Airways and the other airlines concerned. But in addition to agreeing supersonic corridors over several countries, we have to obtain permission to land at airports where aircraft noise is a local problem. The experience we are gaining in this will stand us in good stead when, as each problem comes along, we solve it.

Turning to fare surcharges, I cannot say what the ultimate position will be, but we are looking for something below 20 per cent.; something just below 18 per cent. would be satisfactory to the parties, in my view—nothing like the punitive figure some people have been endeavouring to impose on the supersonic service.

I was asked by the noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, about the temperature characteristics of certain flights. It was a fact that we experienced certain phenomena which the French did not. The French have now cleared their Concorde with their certificating authority, but it was thought, in view of the experience we had had with the effect on the auto-pilot at altitude in the Middle and Far East, that we had to go back and do some more flying. This is being done. There is no reason to believe that a satisfactory solution to the problem will not arise.

I was asked about the situation at Heathrow following recent endurance flying. Some critics have seized upon some infringements, and have made much of them. We are examining the results of that flying very carefully to see what improvements can be achieved at Heathrow. I will say again that the results of noise measurements are fully consistent with noise measurements made at Casablanca at the end of last year in accordance with the ICAO noise measuring techniques, and on which the evidence submitted to the United States Federal Aviation Authority and other authorities was based. At this point, we should bear in mind that when Concorde comes into commercial service, this aircraft will account for less than 1 per cent. of movements at Heathrow, out of a total of 800 movements in one day, and that only when Concorde is operating all the services that we now envisage. I cannot believe, therefore, that there can be any decisive objection to a start for this really magnificent product of British industry.

House adjourned at twenty-nine minutes past eight o'clock.