§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, after further discussions with the Post Office, they are able to make a further statement concerning a cheap postal rate for Christmas cards posted sufficiently early.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of INDUSTRY (Lord Beswick)My Lords, I am afraid I can only repeat the answer previously given that a cheap rate of postage for Christmas cards would, in the judgment of the Post Office, involve a cost penalty which they do not feel able to accept. Even if this concession were limited to November, as my noble friend has suggested to me by letter, the same considerations would apply.
§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, realising the volume of public support since this Question was asked originally on 17th July, and the continuing efforts of the Post Office Users' National Council, may I ask whether it is not obvious that if we had a cheaper rate a great many more Christmas cards would be posted than would otherwise be the case? Believing that we have the sympathy of my noble friend, if that does not embarrass him, may I ask whether he would raise two points with the Post Office? First, do they not understand that if they were to make such an experiment at least it would be a gesture of some good will towards their customers? 768 Secondly, is it not true that until an actual experiment has been carried out, no amount of research either way can indicate for certain what would be the result?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, as to the first part of the noble Baroness's Question, I am sure that she is absolutely right that there would be more Christmas cards posted if the postage rate was less, but I am informed that if there was a half-pence concession there would need to be 40 million extra cards posted simply to recover the loss in that reduction. If there were a 2½p reduction—which is the figure that I have seen quoted in some of the correspondence—there would need to be 300 million extra items posted before even the revenue was maintained, and that is leaving aside the added costs of administration of this additional burden. Those are the figures given to me by the Post Office. As to the good will issue, I have no doubt that what my noble friend says is quite right; but maybe I might add on behalf of the Post Office that it is always possible to acquire good will it one is generous with other people's money.
§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, I am sure that my noble friend is much too competent a Minister to accept those figures from the Post Office without further research. Why should they be right? Why do they know any more than the rest of us about how many extra ones would be sent?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I am not quite certain from what authority they derive this extra intelligence, but I can assure the noble Baroness, first, that I have questioned this and, secondly, that they stick to it.
§ The Marquess of HEADFORTMy Lords, is the Minister aware that if citizens of this country post their postcards in a parcel to a friend in the Republic of Ireland and they are subsequently posted in the Republic of Ireland, they cost only 5p a card?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I quite agree that there are anomalies at the moment.
§ Lord WADEMy Lords, is it not true that for years there have been appeals to post early for Christmas? Would it not 769 be reasonable in this respect to provide some small economic incentive to post early for Christmas?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, this is a point which has been raised and has been considered. It is suggested to me that, if they did post early enough, extra administrative costs would still be incurred and they would not be met by this lower rate of postage.
§ Lord SLATERMy Lords, in regard to the question that has been asked by my noble friend Lady Burton, is the noble Lord aware that the only way to ease this position would be to have the unsealed letter, the envelope, where you could put only the one Christmas card in order of transit from one address to another instead of the position being where you have got the sealed envelope where the customer is able (or it can come from one household) to put thereof four cards in one envelope instead of three or four cards in three or four separate envelopes? Is he not further aware that even at this moment the Post Office is having to cut down for the Christmas service in regard to increasing their labour force to deal with the amount of postal matters which will be arising this year?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I am not quite certain that I have followed the first part of the question. If my noble friend is suggesting that an unsealed envelope would meet the difficulties that I have indicated, I am afraid he is mistaken.
§ Lord SLATERMy Lords, in view of the fact that he has said that he does not understand the first part of my question is my noble friend aware that he ought to? I should have thought that his intelligence was more advanced than what it really is. Is he not aware that there is a two-stage postal service in this country—what is called the first- and second-class mail—and the second-class mail now requires a sealed envelope, with the result that you find that at Christmas time instead of one card being in an envelope you have three or four?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, the fact remains that, whether an envelope is sealed or unsealed, it cannot be transported at the reduced rate of postage. That is the point I have been trying to make.
§ The Earl of ONSLOWMy Lords, can the Minister say what will be the reduction in the number of Christmas cards sent this year as a result of the increase in postal charges? If he cannot say, then the reduced revenue he will get by decreasing the stamp surely amounts to a valueless judgment.
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I cannot say what reduction there will be. I can only tell the noble Earl, if I may do so in confidence, that I have had a wager about what the effect would be.
The Earl of GOWRIEMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, despite the deep feeling on this question in all parts of the House, and indeed outside, some of us will feel with him that at this season a careful eye on any form of public expenditure is sadly the necessary thing?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Earl, because it is so easy to criticise public expenditure in general and then argue for it in particular.
§ Baroness SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, will my noble friend ask the Post Office to consider producing a simple card, already franked, which could be sold to the public and which would be a good commercial proposition?
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEA bit too late for this year, my Lords.
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, whether the cost of doing what my noble friend suggests would be within the limits of economy I cannot say. It is a point which might well be considered, but I am afraid that it could not be operated this Christmas.
§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Shepherd)My Lords, I know this is a matter close to your Lordships' hearts, but I would point out that we have already spent seven, nearly eight, minutes on this Question and perhaps we could now move to the next Question.
§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, perhaps I could delay your Lordships on this matter for maybe 25 seconds longer and ask my noble friend, on this matter of research, whether he feels it is possible for an answer to be 771 given before the experiment has been carried out?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, it will be possible to tell whether or not my wager has been won, which is what is involved here, only at the end of the Christmas postal season, but I will tell my noble friend what the result is.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, how much is the wager for?