Lord CAMPBELL of CROYMy Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn, who cannot be present, and at his request, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in his name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have given each of the independent grant-aided schools in Scotland the information necessary to enable them to choose whether to remain independent or to become comprehensive public schools; and which of these schools have so far reached a decision.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (Lord Kirkhill)My Lords, the managers of the Scottish grant-aided secondary schools are fully informed of the Government's intentions as to the phasing out of grant. They have been asked to discuss with the appropriate education authorities whether, and, if so, on what conditions, their schools might be integrated into the public system of education and to inform the Secretary of State of their decision as between integration and independence. Fourteen boards of managers representing the interests of 18 schools have so far responded, all of them opting for independence. In the remaining cases discussions are continuing. It is known that the intention of the Edinburgh Company of Merchants is that their schools should become independent, but that one of their school buildings should be acquired by the education authority concerned.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROYMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that reply. However, the Government having afforded this choice, and a large proportion of the schools having opted to become independent, will the Minister now give an absolute assurance that a Labour Government in the future will not be a threat to abolish independent schools and so nullify the decisions just taken by these schools?
§ Lord KIRKHILLMy Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, is aware, the decision in Scotland to move 1673 to a system, where possible, of all-through or two-tier comprehensive schools is one which expresses the political philosophy of the Party to which I adhere. Within that framework, unquestionably a great deal of negotiation and complete frankness on the part of the Government was made available to each board of management.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROYMy Lords, again may I ask the Minister whether or not he can give an assurance? Does this not make a mockery of the choice which has been given to the schools?
§ Lord KIRKHILLMy Lords, the Government believe that to move to a system of comprehensive education means that the educational door of opportunity is held open for a greater length of time in the hope that those who presently are somewhat disadvantaged may indeed enjoy the full benefit of every educational opportunity that is available. Within that framework, therefore, it seems to us that the selective school end of the scheme works disadvantageously against the comprehensive ethos.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether it would not be wise for noble Lords opposite to wait until the debate tomorrow on direct grant schools?
Lord CAMPBELL of CROYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to answer that question? May I also point out that direct grant schools in England and Wales are quite different from grant-aided schols in Scotland?
§ Lord KIRKHILLMy Lords, it is not for me to respond to a question that has been put to the other side of the House by one of my noble friends. I can confirm that the system in Scotland is quite disparate from that in England.
§ Lord MACKIE of BENSHIEMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether the wholesale decision of these distinguished educational bodies and very distinguished schools in Scotland to opt for the private system makes him think that the comprehensive system may have something wrong with it?
§ Lord KIRKHILLMy Lords, this comes to the very nub of the problem on 1674 the Scottish scene. On the other hand, the pupils represented by these schools form a very small percentage of the total school population in Scotland. Certainly where the all-through comprehensive system is already in being, as it is in Aberdeen, some outstanding results are now available.