§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government to state whether the study of the major review of all aspects of the security of explosives in Great Britain, which was concluded in 1973 has been completed and what steps have been taken, or are about to be taken, to enforce greater security with particular reference to gelignite and to detonators.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, HOME OFFICE (Lord Harris of Greenwich)My Lords, the existing controls have been tightened up and we believe that these are adequate at the present time. We will keep this matter under review and will not hesitate to impose further controls if necessary. Since the introduction of the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1974, the police have further intensified their surveillance at ports.
§ Lord HALEMy Lords, does the noble Lord recall that last November he agreed, first, that most of the more serious explosions were caused by manufactured explosives, and that home-made explosives—as I have found when making fireworks—are apt to boomerang on to the maker; secondly, that he had adequate power to make regulations to deal with that; thirdly, that he had in 1973 received the Report of a Committee which, by implication, contained important recommendations for action and that it was still under consideration? What has happened since?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, the position is that most of the problems of concern in this country arise from commercial explosives. We believe that the present powers are adequate to deal with the situation. There are a series of related problems; for instance, physical security at stores where explosives are situated. In this respect, the number of successful thefts has decreased from 27 in 1969 to four in 1974. The police are very much aware of their responsibilities in this matter. We have discussed it with them at length and we do not believe that 1378 further powers are necessary at this moment. If they are, then we shall come to Parliament.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether the powers vested in the Government in this connection include demanding that those in charge, in industrial or other establishments where gelignite or any potentially explosive material is in use, have to inform the authorities when any deficiencies occur either by theft or in any other fashion? If so, what action is taken when the information is received?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, there is certainly an obligation to report to the police if a theft takes place from an explosives store. That is why I have been able to give the precise figures today. If such a report is made, it is investigated at once. The situation at the moment is that the number of thefts, as I have said, has decreased substantially. This is partly because of the increased realisation by industry of the serious situation which obtains if these thefts take place, and partly because of the increased interest by the police in matters of this sort.
§ Lord REDESDALEMy Lords, are not the detonators one of the main problems? I have raised this point and its security aspects before, and I do not want to embarrass the noble Lord or the Government. But would it not appear that a very much greater degree of sophistication in the marking of detonators might assist the police? I do not want to push this point too far at the moment, but will the noble Lord consider it?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, the control over detonators is largely the same as for explosives generally. But there are a number of aspects of this matter that one does not want to go into in public.
§ Lord ARWYNMy Lords, is the Minister aware that most of the trouble lies in the smuggling of explosives, including detonators and gelignite, from Belgium; and that I speak with some experience about the subject?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, I am not quite sure of the significance of the noble Lord's last few 1379 words. I am almost tempted to say that I will draw them to the attention of the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis; but I am not sure that that is appropriate. But I think that he is right and that there is a problem of smuggling. That is why I drew attention to the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act, which gives the police greater powers and increased responsibilities in dealing with this serious problem.
§ Lord HALEMy Lords, will my noble friend consider publishing this Report so that the public can judge? Has he taken any measures to restrict the sale, in almost every chemist's shop of the materials for making explosives in the country. Will he remember that if a powerful Committee has reported, we are entitled to know what regulations it has proposed?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, I think my noble friend is referring to sodium chlorate and similar substances. We have regulation-making powers under the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act to deal with this problem if it arises. I repeat that this is not the problem at the moment. The problem is commercial explosives, which are the cause of most of the explosions that have taken place in London and other cities.