§ 2.48 p.m.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether steps can be taken to introduce legislation to oblige all persons manufacturing or selling ice cream, including vendors of ice cream from mobile vans or other vehicles to be registered with the appropriate local authority, so that steps can be taken to inspect the premises where the ice cream is made and to ensure reasonable standards of hygiene in the public interest.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the Food and Drugs Act 1955 requires premises, other than catering premises, schools and clubs, where ice cream is manufactured, stored or sold for human consumption to be registered by the appropriate local authority. Such premises and persons working in them are subject to the requirements of the Food Hygiene (General) Regulations 1970. Mobile ice cream vans must comply with the requirements of the Food Hygiene (Markets, Stalls and Delivery Vehicles) Regulations 1966 which relate to the cleanliness of vehicles, persons and equipment.
Lord JANNERMy Lords, does my noble friend realise that there are a large number of convictions in magistrates' courts against street vendors who are not licensed for selling ice cream, and that there is no control over those individuals so far as registration is concerned? Is my noble friend aware that this means that the premises in which the ice cream is manufactured or prepared for such sales have not been examined and, indeed, cannot be examined because no- 1144 body knows where they are? Is it not important, from the point of view of public health, that these people should be compelled to register in the same way as those compelled to do so under local by-laws? Can my noble friend make a general rule for that purpose?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, my noble friend speaks of compulsion. He has also informed your Lordships that prosecutions are in fact taking place, which I presume is compulsion under law. I really do not see what more we can do than apply the law where we find that it has been broken.
§ Lord SLATERMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that if the proposition put forward by my noble friend Lord Janner were carried into effect, a tremendous number of licences would have to be issued because of the amount of ice cream which is being made in many homes, due to the availability of the necessary ingredients?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for his informative interjection.
Lord JANNERMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend to reconsider this matter? What I was driving at was that people are charged, not with not being registered but with not having licences to sell in the streets; and consequently they have obviously not been registered. Is he aware that many local authorities have special by-laws to provide for the registration of every establishment used for the manufacture for sale of ice cream, and will he see to it that, in view of the fact that some local authorities do not have such a by-law, there will be consideration given to making it compulsory throughout the land, apart entirely from the by-laws themselves?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the noble Lord has obviously found a loophole in the legislation, and I shall bring it to the attention of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State.
§ Lord REDESDALEMy Lords, in order to put the matter into perspective, can the noble Lord tell us how many cases of poisoning there have been due 1145 to ice cream which has been made on dirty premises? I have no idea how many of these cases there are, whether it is a large number or a small number.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the situation is that once upon a time, prior to 1959, when legislation in regard to this matter came in, ice cream was a very suspect food. Subsequent upon the Ice Cream (Heat Treatment) Regulations 1959 the situation has improved markedly, and ice cream is regarded as a safe food. No recorded cases of food poisoning have been noted in recent years.
Lord JANNERMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he will be good enough not to wait until people are poisoned, but see to it that the law is introduced before that opportunity arises?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMYes, my Lords.
§ Lord MACKIE of BENSHIEMy Lords, does the noble Lord agree that although ice cream may not have killed anybody, a lot of it has not done anyone any good? So will he put no obstacle in the way of the manufacture of ice cream from milk, instead of the curious ingredients which at present go into much of the hygienic stuff which is sold over the counter?
Viscount MONCKMy Lords, on this matter of the inspection of premises, can the noble Lord assure us that on this anniversary of Guy Fawkes' Day his noble friend the Captain of the Yeomen of the Guard and the Yeomen of the Guard made a thorough inspection of these premises before we assembled?
§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Shepherd)My Lords, I suggest that that is another question; and, what with women and ice cream, I suggest we move to the next business.