HL Deb 04 November 1975 vol 365 cc1068-83

6.59 p.m.

The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, NORTHERN IRELAND OFFICE (Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge) rose to move, That the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1973 (Amendment) Order 1975, laid before the House on 13th October, be approved. The noble Lord said: My Lords, although I rise to seek the approval of your Lordships' House to the Order reproscribing the Ulster Volunteer Force, I should like to take the opportunity of explaining—as my right honourable friend has done earlier today in another place—the way in which the Government see the security situation in Northern Ireland at present and the manner they consider best suited for dealing with it.

It has become clear that there has been a change in the nature of violence in Northern Ireland this year. The campaign to disrupt life through the bombing of Government and commercial premises has given way to a wave of murders. Gangsters and criminals arc acting without any facade of political backing or belief and terrorist organisations are engaged in gang warfare, seen particularly in the last few days in the feud between the Provisional and Official IRA. There is an atmosphere of lawlessness. The Government propose to crack down on this, using methods most appropriate for such a situation. In the forefront must be the Royal Ulster Constabulary, supported, as necessary, by the Army and with the sanctions of the law and the machinery of the courts behind them to restore the rule of law.

The prime role of the police is the first of a four stage approach to the present situation. Already the RUC has shown how it can respond to the challenge. This year over 1,000 people have been charged with serious crimes, including 118 with murder and 77 with attempted murder. The formation of the "A" Squad to deal with sectarian murders has paid dividends, and there is increasing evidence of public support demonstrated by co-operation from the publicin providing information about crimes and criminals. I am pleased to report, moreover, that since my right honourable friend's Statement in September 1974 about policing, the RUC has increased its strength by 443 recruits to give a present total of 4,760, and the strength of the RUC Reserve has increased by 2,200 to bring it to a current strength of 4,894.

A key element in the Government's approach is reliance on the courts to deal with offenders rather than the detention process. Detention has played an important part in dealing with violence from 1972 to 1975, but there is a price to be paid for it. Detention has offended a large section of the law-abiding community in Northern Ireland, and particularly the minority community from the Cardinal downwards. It has caused widespread resentment on all sides, and although my Party did not oppose its introduction by our opponents, the time has come to reconsider it. We are convinced that so far as is humanly possible, the proper procedures henceforward for dealing with lawlessness are the traditional ones of arresting, charging and sentencing in the courts.

It is essential, however, if this policy is to succeed, to make improvements in the prison system. There are two main problems at present: the existence of special category status and the absence of a parole scheme. We all deplore special category, while appreciating the reason why it had to he introduced. But as I explained to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, in the debates on the Emergency Provisions Act (Amendment) Bill, there would be no point in abolishing it without first having appropriate cellular accommodation for all new prisoners in place of compound conditions. I am pleased to report that 200 cells will be ready almost immediately and that others are in the course of construction.

My right honourable friend, therefore, has decided to end it for all offenders accused of crimes committed after 1st March 1976. Those in prison who already hold the status will not be deprived of it. But offenders sentenced for crimes committed after the due date will be treated like any other prisoner. The accommodation problems, although improving, are exacerbated by the fact that there is no parole scheme in Northern Ireland, and the greater the success of the Security Forces, the more pressure is put upon the system. We have given a great deal of consideration to the possibility of introducing a parole scheme, but have concluded that the special circumstances in Northern Ireland—particularly the problems of compound conditions and supervision after release—will not allow for a scheme comparable to that in Great Britain. Accordingly, my right honourable friend intends to introduce legislation to provide for the conditional release of prisoners after one-half of their sentence has been served. Once released, the prisoner will be liable to serve the outstanding balance of his sentence if he is convicted again during that period. Conditional release in this way will replace the existing procedure whereby unconditional release is granted after two-thirds of the sentence has been served but, as now, release will be subject to good behaviour in prison.

I must stress that this conditional release scheme is in no sense an amnesty, it is in lieu of a parole scheme. Up to date, people in Northern Ireland have been considerably worse off than their counterparts in Great Britain, in that every prisoner in Great Britain is entitled to be considered for parole after he has served one-third of his sentence, and 40 per cent. are actually given parole with supervision. At the moment, all prisoners in Northern Ireland serve a full two-thirds of their sentence, but are then unconditionally released. Under the new scheme they will be conditionally released after half their sentence. Those serving sentences of one year or less will be given remission of one-half of sentence without conditions, while those serving life sentences will continue to have their sentences reviewed as at present the new provisions will not apply to them.

The intention of the Government is that these penal reforms will start in March 1976 and take full effect by 1st July 1976. I have no doubt that they are highly desirable and much needed, and, as I have said, they will enable us, in conjunction with the new accommodation, to phase out special category status. People convicted of offences after the introduction of the new scheme will not be granted special category status. They will be treated as all other prisoners. In the new legislation there will also be provisions for community services orders, deferred sentences and bail hostels, other desirable reforms for Northern Ireland which already exist on the mainland.

My right honourable friend has also mentioned detention. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, made the point in his Report that Detention can only be tolerated in a democratic society in the most extreme circumstances". The Secretary of State has signed no interim custody orders since February, and there are now only 172 detainees in custody, compared with over 500 at the beginning of the year. It is worth commenting that all these 172 who are left have been held for more than eight months, and some for up to three years. My right honourable friend has stated today that, in view of the measures that he has announced, he is strengthened in his resolve to release the remainder of the detainees by Christmas, unless, there is a fundamental change in the situation.

These proposals show the way in which the Government are looking to the future. However, the most important factor of all is that the law-abiding people in Northern Ireland should themselves take measures to support the police and the Government in restoring law and order and peace. Before I leave this subject I must point out that these measures will come before your Lordships in the form of an Order in Council in the new Session, when there will be ample scope for detailed discussion.

I apologise to your Lordships for spending so much time on the general security situation rather than the matter of the proscription of the UVF, which is the purpose of this debate. It seemed to me, however, that your Lordships would wish to know of the Government's proposals at the earliest possible moment and this debate provided that opportunity.

Coming now to the Order, your Lordships will recall that the Ulster Volunteer Force was originally proscribed in 1973 in the Emergency Provisions Act—thus continuing earlier proscription in the Special Powers Acts—but that in April 1974 the Secretary of State announced that he intended to remove both that organisation and the Sinn Fein from the list of proscribed organisations. He did so in the knowledge that many people in these organisations wished to engage in political activities, while at the same time there was no evidence of the organisations as such engaging in acts of a violent nature. Indeed, the Ulster Volunteer Force had announced a ceasefire in November 1973, and called for an end to sectarian killing and, through the Volunteer Party, contested the October General Election. Regrettably, the organisation turned its face once more towards violence. By the middle of this year they had admitted involvement in the appalling Miami Showband killing, and subsequently in the further indiscriminate killings on 2nd October. In view of this my right honourable friend took the decision to proscribe it.

The Order has been made by the urgency procedure, but in these circumstances it was only proper for the Government to act both quickly and decisively. While the Government's policy remains that of encouraging people in Northern Ireland to engage in political activities so long as these are lawful, there can be no protection for those who claim to be acting politically one moment but the next moment turn to violence. My Lords, I beg to move.

Moved, That the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1973 (Amendment) Order 1975, laid before the House on 13th October, be approved.—(Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge.)

7.11 p.m.

Lord BELSTEAD

My Lords, this Order for the proscription once again of the UVF is an almost inevitable consequence of the appalling violence about a month ago in which the Ulster Volunteer Force admitted its involvement, and I support the Government in the decision which they have taken. I am bound to say to the Government that I think this may well re-open questions about the position of the Provisional Sinn Fein, who have obvious and close liaison with the Provisional IRA; but that is not the matter which we are discussing this evening, and it does not alter the support which I am giving to this Order. I agree absolutely with the Government's view that, in the final analysis, it is the police and the courts which must be responsible for law and order in Northern Ireland; and may I emphasise that I very much welcome the Government's renewed undertaking, which I know was this afternoon given in another place, though I am not quite sure whether it was given by the noble Lord this evening, that while the security situation demands it the Army must remain in strength in Northern Ireland.

The figures which the noble Lord. Lord Donaldson, has given us this evening of people charged in the courts in Northern Ireland this year and of the increase in the numbers within the RUC are certainly very encouraging; but, of course, the test for the police in Northern Ireland is progress in areas where in the last few years their writ has simply not run. I confess I find it difficult to see any substantial progress on this front until in some way the Roman Catholic population is identified more closely with the police force. Some 18 months to two years ago there were, I think, plans for the setting up of local police committees. I wonder whether perhaps some initiative along these lines may be still at the planning stage, and whether it is possible to bring them forward in the foreseeable future.

I welcome also the announcement about the introduction of the new cellular accommodation at the Maze. On both sides of the House we know the reasons for the introduction of special category status, and on both sides of the House it is agreed that somehow or other this has to be ended. I certainly concede that. What I am not entirely clear about from what the noble Lord has said is whether the Government intend to deny special category status to any prisoner entering one of the new cells. If that is to be the policy—and it seemed from what the noble Lord said that that is the policy—I have a simple question. Are the Government confident that demand is not going to exceed supply? If special category status is to depend upon the availability of the new cells, it seems to me that in the event of demand exceeding supply there could be very real difficulties of a formidable nature.

I realise, of course, that the Government statement about conditional releases will relieve pressure on prison accommodation. These releases raise, I would have thought, one small question. I may be on the wrong track here, but it is the question of parity in practice in Great Britain. I realise from what the noble Lord said that in Great Britain parole can be offered after one-third of a sentence has been served. Presumably, however—and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, would know very much more about this than I do—some prisoners do not qualify automatically for this, and I wonder whether, if parole in Great Britain for, let us say, a convicted bomber from Northern Ireland is to be withheld whereas a conditional release is to be offered as of right after half of the sentence has been served in Northern Ireland, that situation might not lead to pressure being brought on the Home Secretary for the transfer of convicted prisoners from Northern Ireland who are serving terms of imprisonment in Great Britain. I should be grateful for guidance on that point, and as to whether the statement has been made with the agreement of the Home Secretary.

Finally, I am interested to know the Government's thinking about the services needed to support the policy of conditional releases and the new moves towards community service orders, suspended sentences and bail hostels in Northern Ireland. Particularly at a time of high unemployment, it is surely essential for the Government to be as confident as they can that the probation and social services are numerous enough to make the success of their policy reasonably hopeful. It is perhaps a paradox that the Government are proscribing an organisation in the Order which we are considering and at the same time are introducing measures for prison reform; but a paradox is nothing new in Northern Ireland affairs, and I support the Government in the measures which they have announced to the House this evening.

7.17 p.m.

Lord DONALDSON of KINGSBRIDGE

My Lords, it might be helpful if I were to reply to the noble Lord before anybody else who wants to speak does so, just to clear the points he has raised. The question of police committees I think was a point which he raised. This idea was mooted in the White Paper preceding the Sunning dale talks. Afterwards, the Government supported the establishment of such committees, but the commitment lapsed with the disbanding of the Executive. Several unofficial committees have been set up and are operating without financial aid from the Government. But my impression is that the SDLP, who are crucial in this, were not really prepared to go heavily into support of such things until the overall committee which was visualised by Sunning dale was set up—and, of course, it never has been. So I think there is not a great deal to look for there at the moment. This is something as to which I think we need to make some political progress before we can really seriously revive it.

On the question of cells and cellular accommodation, the noble Lord asked whether everybody who was put in a cell would be deprived of special category status. The answer is that it is the other way round. Nobody who is tried for a crime committed after 1st March, and who is first kept in remand and subsequently sentenced, will be put anywhere except in a cell. He will not get special category status. He will be treated like an ordinary prisoner, and we have enough cells to deal with this situation, which I think is what the noble Lord really wanted to know about.

As to parity with Great Britain, the position is that, looking right across the board in Northern Ireland, our prisoners will be worse off than 40 per cent. and better off than 60 per cent. of the British prisoners. The position is that for the man in prison in Great Britain consideration for parole arises after one-third of his sentence, and 40 per cent. get it—not necessarily at one-third, but at or after one-third. Those people are better off than our people, who will be released under conditional release after half of their sentence. The 60 per cent. who do not get it are slightly worse off than ours, in that they have to wait for the expiry of two-thirds of the sentence before they get their normal unconditional release. That is the exact comparison.

The noble Lord asked whether this will create problems between men sent to prison in Great Britain for crimes connected with Northern Ireland—men with a reasonable excuse to ask to be sent back to Northern Ireland. The answer is that it may; but most of those convicted of the very serious crimes in Great Britain will have life sentences. The new arrangements do not affect life sentences at all. We might run into one or two anomalies if somebody gets a very long sentence; but when this happens the probability of parole after about halfway gets quite high. I doubt whether there will be a great deal of difference.

My Lords, the noble Lord asked whether we had Probation Service facilities for dealing with such new ideas as community service orders, bail hostels and so on. The answer is that we are short of probation officers but we are increasing our intake reasonably well. The probation officers are not being asked to deal with the conditional release people; they are not having placed upon them this very large burden which has been placed on the English Probation Service for people on parole. Our view is that as these things develop, the Probation Service will develop and we shall be able to deal with it. There is rather a shortage of suitable personnel, but we are working hard on this and, on the whole, we think we shall be able to deal with it.

7.22 p.m.

Lord GARDINER

My Lords, I welcome, as my Committee will, the statement made by my noble friend Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge. I am quite sure, as we are all aware, that the more serious crime can be brought before the courts where everybody can see that the case is proved against them as against detention in relation to which it can never be said that anything has been proved, the better. I am delighted to hear that, unless there is a serious change in the situation, it is proposed to phase out detention by Christmas. I think that everybody agrees that the special category was an unfortunate mistake. It was always clear to my Committee that it would be difficult to get rid of it. I am glad to hear that, at least for the future, it is anticipated that that course can be followed and I am equally glad to learn of the conditional release which is proposed as an alternative to parole.

My Lords, may I ask what are the Government's present plans for further cellular accommodation how large and when it is anticipated that that will be available? Secondly, in view of what has been said about the large number of releases by the end of the year, is any further step being taken on the welfare side?—because, as my noble friend knows, we are always rather concerned that prisoners against whom crimes have been proved in open court have a proper welfare service when they leave; whereas for reasons that I partly understand, detainees have nothing at all.

Lord O'NEILL of the MAINE

My Lords, as is my custom, I will not go into details other than to welcome the statement. The Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, and I have had the advantage of hearing a certain amount of the debate in the other place this afternoon. One of the things which gladdened my heart was to see the bipartisan policy was still fully in operation. Indeed, I had the advantage—which the Minister did not have owing to his responsibilities here—of hearing the winding-up speech by Mr. Stanley Orme. He thanked the House for their reasonable attitude—more reasonable than on some previous debates. This gave me great heart for the following reason. There have been two bipartisan policies in the last few years which have supported the policy which Her Majesty's Government have adopted towards Northern Ireland. One has been the bipartisan policy at Westminster and the other the bipartisan policy at the Dail in Dublin, unfortunately now shattered; with the Republic on the verge of an Election. Therefore, if we are not going to have a bipartisan policy between the two major parties, in Dublin it is heartening for an observer of the Northern Ireland scene to know that we are going to continue to have a bipartisan policy in London. I think that this is one of the most important things to emerge from this afternoon's debate in another place.

My Lords, it is hard, I know, for Ministers to get over to the people of Northern Ireland that what they say is true. I was therefore delighted that in the general announcements this afternoon, the Secretary of State stressed over and over again that there would be no amnesty. It is not because I am against an amnesty that I am so delighted; but that it is another way of saying that there will be no British withdrawal; because extreme Republicans, as the Minister knows only too well, have been pressing and pressing for a declaration of intent, as it is called in Belfast. It is this declaration of intent which, unfortunately, the Fianna Fail Party, a week ago, decided to back in opposition to the Government in Dublin. Therefore, the Secretary of State's remarks this afternoon in that context were to my mind extremely important.

One of the problems in dealing with Irish affairs—I think that this was said at least 50 or 60 years ago—is that when you make an attempt to settle the Irish question you never get very far because, halfway through, the question changes. I think that there is some truth in that little story with regard to Northern Irish affairs as well. I can recall only too clearly that two or three years ago people were saying in Belfast—and someone like the Rev. Ian Paisley springs to mind—that, "If only Britain will keep out of our affairs, we can settle everything among ourselves." My Lords, the previous Administrations, under Mr. White law, introduced legislation to make possible an Assembly, which was immediately broken up by these people who said, "We can settle our affairs if only the British keep out of it." The Convention was then set up by the present Administration and, if what we hear is true in Belfast, the majority report from the Convention will be totally unacceptable in London. Soonce again despite the obvious efforts of the present Administration to keep out of Northern Ireland affairs—some people even say that they are trying too much to do so—it still seems to be impossible for the local politicians to settle their own affairs.

My Lords, I think anybody who has tried to administer Northern Ireland understands only too well the appalling difficulties which this creates. I was, I must admit, a little surprised having myself proscribed UVF 10 years ago, when the Administration deproscribed them. Now they have had to reproscribe them. I think that what the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, said is true: that extreme Protestants will wonder why the Provisional Sinn Fein are still unproscribed. I am not raising that in any spirit of hostility; I can see the reasons. But I think this will probably be a question which will arise and I know that the Minister appreciates that.

My Lords, finally may I say how much I welcome the reforms announced today which I am sure come very dear to the heart of the Minister who himself, in a totally different English context, is interested in prisoners and prison reform.

7.30 p.m.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, I have not had the advantage of listening to the debate in another place, or of hearing the statement of the Secretary of State, and the statement made in this House this evening is of a complex and detailed character. I am not therefore going to enter into the details of it, but there are three points I want to make. The first is to welcome the decision to end detention without trial, and the release of all those who are now detained without trial before the end of the year. I am perfectly sure that that decision will change fundamentally the psychology in Northern Ireland; the psychology not only among the Catholics, but also the Protestants who, one must remember, have also been subject to detention. I think the figures which the Minister has given of those who have been detained without trial in the ordinary way by juries and judges, indicate to us that even in the extraordinary situation in Northern Ireland today it is possible and, indeed, better, to proceed by democratic judicial methods than by the methods of detention without trial. I welcome very deeply the decision of Her Majesty's Government in that respect, and believe it will contribute greatly to an improvement of the situation in Northern Ireland.

The second point I want to raise is this. I think that the Government have been right in allowing what would ordinarily be described as conditions for political prisoners—I believe it is called Special Category A—during these recent months. As the Home Secretary knows, nearly every week I get letters from young people who have been imprisoned for criminal offences and who are now enjoying the possibilities of Special Category A. This is what has impressed me: that those foolish young people who committed those crimes under the political circumstances in which they have been imprisoned, are now turning in constructive directions. From January they will be students of the Open University, and I believe that the Government have been absolutely right in giving those young people the opportunity while in prison to begin to think in constructive terms instead of feeling that they were repressed in such a way that their old convictions, their old repressions, their old frustrations, should dominate their lives in the future. I am a Humanist but, strange enough, I have almost found myself a spiritual adviser to some of those young people.

I shall refrain deliberately from entering into the broader political considerations in Northern Ireland. I will not even follow the noble Lord in that respect. It is recognised by all sides in Northern Ireland today that there can be no re-opening of the problem of the frontier except with the consent of the people of Northern Ireland. If that is accepted, then surely the important contribution which those who believe in the ultimate union of Northern Ireland can make is not at this stage to create controversy about the Border, but to demonstrate in Northern Ireland itself that Catholic people and Protestant people can work together for their common aims. There is a trade union movement there, and a big ship-building works. Probably Catholic workers are treated with some discrimination; but take the social and economic demands of the workers in Harland and Wolff—they are exactly the same as the social and economic demands of the Catholic workers.

My great appeal to Northern Ireland today would be this: that the workers, both Catholic and Protestant, should put aside the division about the Border—because they both accept that there shall not be change without consent—and should concentrate on their social and economic demands uniting them. If they did that, they would prove by the unity of Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland that finally it would be possible to have Catholic and Protestant unity in Ireland as a whole. I will not pretend to be able to analyse the statement which we have heard in detail tonight, but I greatly welcome the two proposals to which I have referred.

7.39 p.m.

Lord DONALDSON of KINGS-BRIDGE

My Lords, I am most grateful to the three speakers who, with one or two reservations here and there, have welcomed my right honourable friend's new proposals, which I believe are deeply fundamental and important. I think my noble and learned friend Lord Gardiner will feel that though the first response to his Report may have been less than total, the response now is really what he asked for. The undertakings about special categories, the undertakings about detention, the undertakings about something in lieu of a parole scheme, are three deep and important matters to which by noble and learned friend's Report referred. I am grateful for his support.

I should like to answer the question that he asked about further cellular accommodation. We have 200 cells ready now—or they will be ready in a couple of days. We shall have another 300 in 12 months' time; we can have a further 300, perhaps, between eight and 12 months after that. These are not yet commissioned, because we are not sure that we are going to need them. But we have the space so that we can take them. Meanwhile, the young offenders centre at Pardysburn—I think it is called Hyde bank —will have another 300 places by the middle of 1977. By 1980 there will be 400 more places in Maghaberry and a few years later there will be another 400 places there. In addition to this, we have, of course, a certain amount of cellular accommodation in Belfast Prison being used for remand prisoners. There is no intention of changing that, but if we became pressed arrangements could be made to use some of this accommodation for newly convicted prisoners. Therefore, my advice to the Secretary of State has been that we can do this. We have various margins in front of us; we hope it will be like this but if not it will be like that, and we can deal with it. So I do not think that my noble friend need worry.

The noble Lord, Lord O'Neill of the Maine, with his usual elegant pessimism has made one or two points to which I should like to refer. I am very glad to hear that he felt as I do about this afternoon's debate in another place; that is, that the bipartisan policy was not at risk and, as he pointed out, the fact that there is a slight risk across the Border makes it all the more important that there should not be here. He stressed the point of no amnesty, and this is very important. I think that one of the reasons why convicted criminals of crimes of a scheduled type are so anxious to claim special category is that they feel this will one day carry an amnesty. We have now given it all the amnesty it is ever going to get, which is the same as any other prisoner convicted of a crime in Northern Ireland. We have introduced something in lieu of a parole system—in some ways rather better and in others not quite so good—but this is the most that anybody will ever get. They will be treated like all the others and there is no advantage whatever from this point of view in trying to stick to special category.

Just as the noble Lord, Lord O'Neill of the Maine, is an elegant pessimist, my noble friend Lord Brockway is an eloquent optimist. I am always accusing him of optimism in relation to Northern Ireland and I only hope that his optimism is justified. I am delighted at his reaction to the very firm comments of my right honourable friend about ending detention. Clearly, this could go wrong, but he has committed himself as far as any politician could at this stage.

As regards the young people my noble friend was talking about, there are very difficult problems involved here. We can look after the young people. We are introducing quite elaborate vocational training schemes and there are a good many facilities for them; but under the special category arrangements we are not at all sure they will come, because what a boy likes is to be with the men. As a fighting boy, as he thinks he is, he wants to be with the fighting men, and it is very difficult to get these boys—whose lives are going to be totally ruined by this association—to come away and be on their own and accept the facilities that we are offering. This is only just beginning.

We have only just got the vocational training facilities available and we are putting every effort into dealing with this. But if my noble friend, who has contacts with many people on the other side, would tell them that the best thing anybody can do is to get people under 21 out of the compounds and into training, this would be very helpful. I do not think there is anything more to add. I am most grateful for the reception which my right honourable friend's proposals have had here. I believe they are of absolutely fundamental importance and we shall have the opportunity to discuss their details when the Order in Council comes up either in December or January.

Lord JACQUES

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until 8 o'clock.

[The Sitting was suspended from 7.46 p.m. until 8 p.m.]