§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether a date has yet been fixed for the World Disarmament Conference and, if not, whether they will propose to the United Nations Security Council that a date be agreed.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)My Lords, this is a matter for the U.N. General Assembly. The First Committee started its disarmament discussions on 30th October, which will include consideration of the latest report of the ad hoc committee on a world disarmament conference. Noble Lords will not expect me to forecast the outcome.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, in view of the cynicism that exists everywhere may I ask whether Her Majesty's Government cannot give a positive and dynamic lead towards disarmament? Was it not 13 years ago that both the United States and the Soviet Union proposed a phased complete disarmament policy, and cannot Her Majesty's Government give a lead in that direction now?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, before I attempt to answer that question, I should like to congratulate my noble friend and to wish him many happy returns of yesterday as well as cautiously to wish him well in his protracted attempts to substitute the inquisitive society for the acquisitive society. Indeed, we have given leads, dynamic and otherwise, in the Conference on the Committee on Disarmament. It is a continuing conference in Geneva. We have given valuable leads and have made contributions which have led to at least four substantial advances in non-proliferation, partial test ban, biological warfare and in a fourth field relating to technical disarmament. I remind my noble friend that the ad hoc committee was set up by the General Assembly to assess the views 862 of countries generally as to the convening of a world disarmament conference. So far, there is no consensus about the feasibility of such a conference. It would therefore be somewhat premature for us or anybody else to propose a date for a conference about which, sadly, there is no agreement so far. However, I take note with sympathy of what my noble friend has said on this matter and I repeat that I wish him well in the future.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for his kind reference and the House for its reception, may I just say that I do not propose to celebrate my birthdays until the 90th one. May I ask whether, in view of the fact that the Disarmament Conference, with its millions of words and the SALT Conference and the Vienna Conference are bogged down, is it not desirable that there should be a world conference and a consensus of world opinion for disarmament and peace?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSYes, my Lords, that is eminently desirable, and it is why the General Assembly appointed an ad hoc committee, to look into ways and means of setting up such a conference.
§ Lord LLOYD of KILGERRANMy Lords, is the noble Lord in a position to say whether, on the ad hoc committee to which he has referred, there has been any progress towards a unification of views of the Defence Ministers of the EEC countries?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, as the noble Lord knows, the ad hoc committee is composed of representatives of 14 non-nuclear Powers. However, nuclear Powers such as ourselves and another from the Community participate. The views and information which we make available to the ad hoc committee would, I believe, broadly reflect the attitude and views of the Community.
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTONMy Lords, can my noble friend inform the House whether high on the agenda of this conference there will be placed the growing phenomenon of the large States in the world competing with one another at ever-increasing intensity to supply weapons of destruction to the developing countries?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the production and distribution of weapons of destruction by any country will, I expect, be at the top of the Agenda of any world disarmament conference when it is agreed that such a conference shall be held.
Lord JANNERMy Lords, could we not make a start by ourselves refusing, and persuading other countries to refuse, to sell arms to countries against which there could not possibly be any aggression of any kind and which have no internal problems of their own which demand the use of these arms?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, certainly that seems unexceptionable, though it depends on the definition of "aggression". Here again, the discussion of disarmament inevitably leads one into a discussion on aggression.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, referring back to the Strategic Arms Limitation Talks which the noble Lord mentioned a moment ago, could he confirm that the principal problem there is still the difficulty of persuading the Russians to agree to proper policing of any arrangements which may be agreed?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords probably since the Baruch plan of 1946, the problem has been to devise a system of verification which is equally acceptable to East and West.