§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether our allies in NATO have 1186 stated their views on our proposed defence reductions and, if so, what was their reaction.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the reaction of our NATO allies to our Defence Review proposals is described in Chapter 1 of the Statement on the Defence Estimates 1975.
Lord SFIINWELLMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that, because this Statement has just been made and it is one with which I am familiar, having read the Defence White Paper, I had the utmost difficulty in finding a supplementary question? Nevertheless, one has been found and it is this. In view of the fact that, to some extent, our economic position made it necessary for the Secretary of State for Defence to reduce defence expenditure, is it likely that the other countries in NATO, which are much better off than we are, will make a more substantial contribution to the defence expenditure of NATO, in order to make up for the loss sustained because of our economic position?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I can speak only for the British Government; I cannot speak for other Governments. But as my noble friend will know, the Secretary of State for Defence is in very close touch with his European colleagues.
§ Lord BOOTHBYMy Lords, will Her Majesty's Government now urge the French Government to rejoin NATO, because without French participation the NATO Forces in Western Europe cannot possibly hope to be an effective deterrent?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, that is surely the wish of us all.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, can the noble Lord tell us whether the Government are satisfied with NATO's defence expenditure in the light of the very considerable superiority of the Warsaw Pact countries; and will he tell the House whether he believes that what the Government have done in their defence policy is likely to lead to its maintenance, increase or reduction?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I should have thought that was a subject which we could very well discuss in detail tomorrow when we had more time.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, why does my noble friend assert that he can speak only for the British Government and not on behalf of NATO? Is he aware that we are one of the members of NATO? Is he also aware, having read the Defence White Paper, that NATO is spread all over its pages? Why does he come along and say that he cannot speak on behalf of NATO? Is he abandoning NATO?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I assume that the only person who can speak on behalf of NATO is the Secretary General. We can speak about our contribution to NATO within the Alliance.
§ Lord DUNCAN-SANDYSMy Lards, is it not a fact that whenever economies have to be made it is always defence that takes the first cut? Are we getting our priorities right?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, may I recommend that the noble Lord studies the Statement of my right honourable friend in the Defence Review, in which he shows that all sectors of the economy have experienced cuts?
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTONMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that Great Britain is contributing to defence a far greater percentage of her gross national product than many of our European allies?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMThat is so, my Lords, and I am proud of it.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, in the hope that we may all make more informed speeches in the debate tomorrow, I wonder whether the noble Lord will answer my question?
Lord WINIERBOTTOMMy Lords, under shot and shell I have forgotten the exact details of the noble Lord's question! However, I will reply in detail tomorrow.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, since the noble Lord has forgotten my question, may I remind him that I was asking him whether the Government are satisfied with the level of NATO's defence expenditure; and, in view of the Government's policy on defence expenditure, whether he is satisfied that it will encour- 1188 age NATO countries to maintain, increase or reduce their own expenditure?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, obviously this is a sensitive subject. In view of the growing Russian threat, none of us is satisfied with what we are doing. Nevertheless, one does what one can within the limitations of the economy.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, if there is to be a discussion about the priorities, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Duncan-Sandys, is the Minister not aware that the priorities went seriously wrong, with the most disastrous consequences not only for this country but for NATO as a whole, as a result of the Defence White Paper in 1957 which the noble Lord introduced?
§ Lord DRUMALBYNMy Lords, has the Secretary General of NATO spoken about our defence reductions and, if so, what did he say?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMNo, my Lords, he has not.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, in order to clarify the issue in preparation for tomorrow's debate, am I to understand from what my noble friend has said that any reference to NATO must be addressed to the Secretary General? Is it not the case that the Secretary of State for Defence takes responsibility for NATO in his Defence White Paper? Could that matter be cleared up?
§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Shepherd)My Lords, perhaps my noble friend would refer to the custom in your Lordships' House that questions are put to Her Majesty's Government. My noble friend is speaking in reply to that question. Therefore, I should not have thought the noble Lord ought to pursue that particular line of argument.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, I am sorry that the noble Lord the Leader of the House has intervened. To me his intervention seems to be quite unnecessary and quite irrelevant. I am asking a fair question. In view of the debate which will take place in your Lordships' House tomorrow, are we to understand that both of the Ministers who are responsible for dealing with the subject of defence arising from the Defence White Paper cannot answer for NATO?
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, the House will have an opportunity to hear me speak on this Motion tomorrow. There will be a good deal about NATO in my speech. Quite clearly, one Government cannot speak for all the members of NATO.