HL Deb 13 May 1975 vol 360 cc611-7

3.15 p.m.

Lord CHAMPION

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.

Moved, that the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Champion.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The EARL OF LISTOWEL in the Chair]

Clause 1 [Carriage on United Kingdom vehicles, and production of international road haulage permits.]:

Lord MELCHETT moved Amendment No. 1:

Page 1, line 13, leave out from (" journey ") to (" unless ") in line 17 and insert—

  1. (" (i) for or in connection with the carriage or haulage of goods either for hire or reward or for or in connection with any trade or business carried on by the user of the vehicle; and
  2. (ii) either between a place in the United Kingdom and a place outside the United Kingdom or, if the journey passes through any part of the United Kingdom, between places both of which are outside the United Kingdom; ").

The noble Lord said: The Automobile Association have expressed concern that, as drafted, the Bill could apply to caravans and other trailers in which goods may be carried when these are drawn by private cars. There is no such intention. Permits are required only for the commercial operation of goods vehicles on international journeys. The Amendment is designed to clarify the position by the introduction of terms which are already familiar because of their use in Section 60(1) of the Transport Act 1968 in relation to operators' licensing. I beg to move.

Lord CHAMPION

It will be seen that all the Amendments set down are set down in the name of a Minister. Clearly, they have the backing of the Department concerned. I have gone through the whole of them rather carefully because I am in charge of the Bill, at least theoretically; and having regard to the fact that they are so well drafted I accept them so completely that I do not propose to make a speech on every Amendment as it is moved. I hope that the Committee will accept that and will accept also the Amendments when they are moved by my noble friend.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

Lord MELCHETT moved Amendment No. 2: After Clause 1, insert the following new clause—

"Power to prohibit vehicle or trailer being taken out of the United Kingdom

.—(1) If it appears to an examiner:

  1. (a) that a goods vehicle or a trailer is being used in such circumstances as are specified in subsection (2) of section 1 above, and
  2. (b) that, without reasonable excuse, the driver of the goods vehicle or, as the case may require, the person in charge of, or the driver of a vehicle drawing, the trailer has refused or failed to comply with a requirement under that subsection,
the examiner may prohibit the removal of the goods vehicle or trailer out of the United Kingdom, either absolutely or for a specified purpose, and either for a specified period or without limitation of time.

(2) Where an examiner prohibits the removal of a goods vehicle or trailer out of the United Kingdom under subsection (1) above, he shall forthwith give notice in writing of the prohibition to the driver of the goods vehicle or, as the case may require, to the person in charge of, or the driver of the vehicle drawing, the trailer, specifying—

  1. (a) the circumstances in consequence of which the prohibition is imposed,
  2. (b) whether the prohibition applies absolutely or for a specified purpose, and
  3. (c) whether the prohibition is for a specified period or without limit of time,
and the prohibition under subsection (1) above shall come into force as soon as notice thereof is given under this subsection.

(3) Where an examiner is satisfied, with respect to a goods vehicle or trailer to which a prohibition under subsection (1) above relates,—

  1. (a) that the goods vehicle or trailer is being used on a journey to which regulations under section 1(1) above do not apply, or
  2. (b) that there is carried on the goods vehicle or, in the case of a trailer, on the vehicle drawing it or by a person in charge of it a document of a description specified in those regulations,
he may remove the prohibition and, where he does so, shall forthwith give notice in writing of the removal of the prohibition to the driver of the goods vehicle, or as the case may require, to the person in charge of, or the driver of the vehicle drawing, the trailer and the prohibition shall cease to have effect on the giving of that notice.

(4) Unless the person to whom a notice is given under subsection (2) or subsection (3) above is the person using the vehicle concerned, as soon as practicable after such a notice has been given, the examiner who gave it shall take steps to bring the contents of the notice to the attention of the person using the vehicle.

(5) In the exercise of his functions under this section, an examiner shall act in accordance with any general directions given by the Secretary of State.

(6) Any person who, without reasonable excuse,—

  1. (a) removes a goods vehicle or trailer out of the United Kingdom in contravention of a prohibition under subsection (1) above, or
  2. (b) causes or permits a goods vehicle or trailer to he removed out of the United Kingdom in contravention of such a prohibition,
shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £200.

(7) Subsections (8) and (9) of section 1 above shall apply in relation to this section as apply in relation to that."

The noble Lord said: As drafted, the Bill provides for imposition of fines, on summary conviction, on persons using vehicles without permits, when these are necessary, and on persons who refuse or fail to produce such permits at the request of an examiner. Despite these provisions there is nothing to stop a vehicle from being taken abroad on a journey for which permits are required, and in cases where a forged permit is being used it is more than likely that the persons concerned would merely withhold production of the forgery until the frontier of the foreign country concerned was reached. Any fine incurred would be regarded simply as an added expense to be taken into account in assessing the charge for the journey. It is important to prevent vehicles from embarking upon international journeys without valid permits and thus to avoid the many problems which have arisen all too often in foreign countries as a result of use of forgeries.

To achieve this objective it is necessary to prohibit vehicles from leaving the United Kingdom if they do not have the necessary permits. The haulage associations agree in principle. However, unlike the provisions of Section 1(2) of the Road Traffic (Foreign Vehicles) Act 1972, there is no question of detaining the vehicle or prohibiting it from being driven on roads within the United Kingdom. Subsection (1) provides that an examiner may impose such a prohibition. It also ensures that in exercising his powers he should be able to use his discretion as regards the extent and duration of the prohibition. Sub-section (2) requires an examiner who imposes a prohibition to give details of it in writing to the driver or person in charge of the vehicle. This is comparable with Section 1(5) of the Road Traffic (Foreign Vehicles) Act 1972 and Sections 57(2) and 57(7) of the Road Traffic Act 1972. The prohibition will come into force forthwith. Subsection (3) deals with removal of the prohibition. This may be effected by any examiner provided he is satisfied either that a valid permit for the journey in question has been obtained and is produced to him or that the vehicle is no longer to be used on a journey for which a permit is required. The latter circumstances may arise where, for example, the load is changed to one falling within an exempt category or the place where the goods are to be unloaded is changed to one in a country which does not require British goods vehicles to have permits. Notification of removal of the prohibition must be given in writing by the examiner to the driver, or person in charge, of the vehicle and the prohibition shall cease to have effect forthwith. This is comparable with Section 2(3) of the Road Traffic (Foreign Vehicles) Act 1972.

Subsection (4) requires the user of the vehicle, if he is not the driver or person in charge of it, to be notified when a prohibition has been imposed on or removed from a vehicle. This is necessary because it is the "user", as referred to in Clause 1(8), who is responsible for matters relating to the operation of the vehicle both in the United Kingdom and on international journeys. Subsection (5) provides that, in exercising his functions under this section, an examiner shall act in accordance with any general directions given by the Secretary of State. This is similar to the provisions of Section 2(4) of the Road Traffic (Foreign Vehicles) Act 1972 and Section 57(11) of the Road Traffic Act 1972.

Subsection (6) makes it an offence to remove a goods vehicle, or cause or permit it to be removed, out of the United Kingdom in contravention of a prohibition imposed under subsection (1). The fine of up to £200 would be additional to those provided for in Clause 1(3) and (4). This provision is important in order to deal with any unscrupulous persons who seek to evade a prohibition notice, for example, by taking the vehicle to a port other than that from which it was intended to embark. Finally, subsection (7) applies to this section the construction and definition set out in Clause 1(8) and (9). I beg to move.

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, for explaining this rather complicated Amendment to us so lucidly. It is generally agreed that these stringent measures are necessary to help stamp out forgeries. If we do not do this, we shall wring our own necks; we have to do this for the sake of our transport operators working in Europe. I should like to have the noble Lord's assurance that operators will not be too heavily impeded in their normal business in transport. This is a worry which has occurred to some of the haulage associations. I am sure it is very far from the Government's intention to impede them, and the three transport associations with whom I have been in touch have agreed that these measures are necessary. They obviously do not like this new clause, but they like even less the false "cowboy" operators and are willing to suffer this knowing the object of the exercise. But there is still a doubt at the back of their minds, so may we be assured that they will be hindered no more than is necessary?

Lord MELCHETT

I am sure we can give the noble Lord that assurance. I am perfectly certain that examiners will be very alive to the need not to impede legitimate traffic. It is a question of striking a balance between stamping out the practice of using forged permits and allowing road hauliers to carry on their business.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2 [Application of Transport Act 1968 and Road Traffic Act 1972 to international road haulage permits]:

Lord MELCHETT moved Amendment No. 3: Page 3, line 40, leave out (" paragraph ") and insert (" paragraphs ")

The noble Lord said: With permission, I will speak to Amendments Nos. 3 and 4 together. Using a vehicle in contravention of a prohibition imposed under Clause 1A, is a serious matter. In practice, the situation is likely to arise only when forged permits are being used, but conviction for such an offence, in addition to attracting a fine, should put the operator's licence at risk whether or not he is involved in the use of forged permits. This Amendment will add conviction of an offence (under Clause 1A(6)) of contravention of a prohibition notice to the grounds on which a licensing authority may revoke, suspend or curtail an operator's licence. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Lord MELCHETT: I beg to move Amendment No. 4.

Amendment moved—

Page 3, line 45, at end insert— (" (eee) a conviction of the holder of the licence or a servant or agent of his under section (Power to prohibit vehicle or trailer being taken out of the United Kingdom) of the International Road Haulage Permits Act 1975 ".")—(Lard Melchett.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3 [Application of Transport Act (Northern Ireland) 1967 to international road haulage permits]

Lord MELCHETT

I should like to deal with Amendments Nos. 5 and 6 together. These Amendments follow, in relation to Northern Ireland legislation, the Amendment to Clause 2 which your Lordships have just passed. I beg to move Amendment No. 5.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 27, leave out (" 34 ") and insert "29(1) ").—(Lord Mcichett.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Lord MELCHETT: I beg to move Amendment No. 6.

Amendment moved—

Page 4, line 28, after (" 1967") insert (" (suspension and revocation of operators' or vehicle licences), after paragraph (d) there shall be inserted the following paragraph:— (" (dd) that the holder of the licence, or any servant or agent of his, has been convicted of an offence under section (Power to prohibit vehicle or trailer being taken out of the United Kingdom) of the International Road Haulage Permits Act 1975". (2) In section 34 of that Act").—(Lord Melchett.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clause agreed to.

House resumed: Bill reported with the Amendments.