§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they intend to place an order for the maritime version of the Harrier for use by the Royal Navy.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the Government will take a decision on this project as soon as possible now that the main work of the Defence Review has been completed.
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that reply. Will he confirm that the Navy are anxious to have this aircraft; and does he realise that valuable export orders, which include one amounting to £ 150 million from one country alone, are entirely dependent on the Government showing sufficient confidence in this air-craft to purchase it ourselves?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I am aware that there is very widespread interest in this particular version of the Harrier. The noble Earl may have information which is not available to me. I know of interest in the aircraft, but so far no firm negotiations have started ; and in any case it is not policy, as the noble Earl will know, to give details of purchases of British defence equipment at this sort of stage.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, when my noble friend says that some of the information is not available to him about the Harrier, is it not true that negotiations have reached such a stage that some foreign countries, nameless this afternoon in these circumstances, have already negotiated a supply of Harriers and arrangements will be made shortly to export them? Are we to be in the position that foreign countries are going to obtain some of the most modern aircraft for military purposes, and we, because of a decision by the Government to reduce Defence expenditure, are to be left with-out them? Is that the situation in which we shall now find ourselves?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I did not say that we would be left without the naval Harrier. What I said was that now that the main work on the Defence Review has been completed, and it has been a very heavy burden of work, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence will turn his attention to this situation.
§ Lord LLOYD of KILGERRANMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he can be more specific as to when his right honourable friend will turn his attention to this matter?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, it will be soon.
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, while I appreciate that the Government have received no firm orders from abroad, will the noble Lord realise that no firm orders will result unless the British Government themselves show confidence in this aircraft?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I agree completely with the noble Earl. It is a "chicken and egg" situation, but my right honourable friend is fully aware of that.
§ Lord THOMASMy Lords, may I ask whether the noble Lord is aware that the Harrier is a uniquely British concept, invention and productionised aeroplane? Unless we have enough courage to back up that concept and invention with orders, it is not likely to attract many export orders.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMYes, my Lords, I am aware of the position.
§ Lord BALNIELMy Lords, is it not correct that the order from the Government of Iran for a through-deck cruiser is to some extent dependent upon the Royal Navy itself ordering the maritime version of the Harrier?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, as I said, the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, seems to be better informed than I am. In fact, the through-deck cruiser— as the noble Lord knows even better than I do, because he was more recently at the Ministry of Defence than I— is basically an anti-submarine vessel carrying Sea Kings for which it is designed. The maritime Harrier would be a most welcome addition to its capabilities, but its absence would not invalidate the work of the through-deck cruiser.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, may I ask whether my noble friend can explain how, within the context of declarations made by his right honourable friend the Secretary of Defence about reduced expenditure on defence, it will be possible to provide the expenditure for the Harriers, which are very expensive indeed, and which, in my opinion, are very desirable, particularly if foreign countries are likely to get them in future? How will this be arranged? How do we inject expenditure into the Harriers when reduced expenditure on defence has already been decided by the Government?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that overseas orders for the maritime Harrier have already been jeopardised— indeed, some say lost — because of the Government's procrastination in this matter? Will he use his influence to ensure that his right honourable friend now proceeds with this consideration as a matter of great urgency?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I do not accept that accusation. I am as aware of the situation as other noble 746 Lords who are interested in the subject, but no decision has yet been reached. The matter will now receive urgent consideration by my right honourable friend.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, does my noble friend consider that my question is of such a character that it does not deserve an answer? May I repeat the question?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, my noble friend asked me how we were to inject the Harrier into an area of reduced expenditure. The situation is that funds are already earmarked for this purpose in the forward plan, but since the problem that faces us is one of inflation— and there are various other factors which may influence defence expenditure in the future—my right honourable friend is not immediately committing himself on the subject.
§ Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYEMy Lords, in view of the tremendous interest in this most remarkable aircraft, may I ask the Minister whether he could give us a time for when it is likely that a decision will be reached? Will it be in one, two or three months? Does the noble Lord realise the urgency of this matter? May I ask him to amend his statement that there is interest in this aircraft, to saying that there is intense interest in a most admirable aircraft which is a credit to the aircraft industry of this country?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I cannot give a time scale, but since the White Paper on Defence—which I am certain will be debated soon—has appeared today, I am sure I will be able to give the noble Lord a more concrete date at the time of such a debate.
§ Lord BROWNMy Lords, will my noble friend agree that this attempt to debate important priorities in this matter of defence expenditure can go much too far?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I prefer a more extended debate than is permitted at Question Time.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, the noble Lord has said that the Defence White Paper is available. Has it been printed yet and, if so, is it available to Members of this House?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, this is a somewhat complex point. I have obtained a Xerox copy, but I understand there will be copies available in the House for noble Lords who have a specialised interest in the matter. Every step is being taken to meet the requirements of noble Lords.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, may I say that copies of the White Paper will be avail-able later today. At the same time, may I suggest that we have been a long time on what is an extremely important and, indeed, fascinating Question. I think we should now move on to the next business.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I have requested that the House should go on to the next business, and I believe the House agrees.
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, I was about to ask the question when the noble Baroness stood up. I should like to put one serious question. Will the noble Lord be kind enough to convey to his right honourable friend the urgent point that without this naval order the whole future of the Harrier programme will go to America?