§ Baroness MASHAM of ILTONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the memorandum concerning the appointment of consultants recently sent to regional medical officers is intended to discriminate against those who have objections to the termination of pregnancy on grounds of religious belief or conviction of conscience.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLNo, my Lords. The intention of the Chief Medical Officer's letter, the terms of which were agreed with the profession, was to distinguish those few situations where the services for the termination of pregnancy, within the terms of current legislation, could not be provided unless when appointing a new consultant to a particular post it was filled by a consultant prepared to take part in the service. The procedure is also designed to help those who have objections to the termination of pregnancy on grounds of religious belief or conviction of conscience in that when they apply for posts in other situations there will now be no need to question them about their willingness to take part in terminations of pregnancy.
§ Baroness MASHAM of ILTONMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask him whether in the future there will be a place in the National Health Service for practising Roman Catholic doctors who want to 1384 practise obstetrics, gynaecology and anaesthetics?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, there is at the present moment a place for them; there has been for years. This is merely concerned with the termination of pregnancy. Apart from that, there will always be a place for such doctors with such skills.
§ The Earl of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, would the noble Lord agree that the very issue of termination of pregnancy, which he described as a "few situations", raises very delicate issues of freedom of conscience? Would he not agree that one of the tests of a free society is absolute freedom of conscience and respect for religious belief?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, that is precisely why the Chief Medical Officer of Health has issued a memorandum, pointing out that when recruiting people for such positions a job specification must be set out so that they can see what the job involves.
§ Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBYMy Lords, will my noble friend inquire into the efficiency of the public relations services of the Department of Health and Social Security? Is he aware that this circular was issued on 19th February last, and it appears that not until 4th June had the Evening News discovered its existence and it then came out with a completely misleading headline? Is he also aware that as recently as 7th June a Mr. Roche of the Guild of Catholic doctors wrote a letter to The Times, again under a misunderstanding? Will my noble friend kindly publish the terms of the circular of 19th February in the Official Report, so that we can all see exactly what it says?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, speaking from memory, I believe that the memorandum has been in the Library of your Lordships' House for some time.
§ Lord ABERDAREMy Lords, are these matters which raise difficult questions of conscience not better left to the discretion of the local appointing committee, rather than to any central directive from the Department of Health?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I think that there is a responsibility on 1385 the Department of Health to give guidance to the various bodies who are going to appoint any consultants, especially when a certain appointment may involve them in some question of conscience. This is all the memorandum has done. It was agreed that it should be issued and the content was agreed by the profession itself.
§ Lord PANNELLMy Lords, is it not a fact that during the passing of the 1967 Act the other place went to great pains to write in conscience clauses on this matter, and that the profession has very well known the position ever since then? It did not lack advocates in the other House. Might I just underline that idea, bearing in mind that so many abortions have to take place?
§ Several Noble Lords: Order, Order!
§ Lord PANNELLI know my noble friends' interest in this subject, but is it not a fact that while minorities have rights the majority must govern?
§ The Lord Bishop of LEICESTERMy Lords, while the Minister takes time to meditate on that last contribution may I ask a rather simple question? Is the effective meaning of the new directive that no gynaecologist who cannot perform abortions will ever be able to obtain a senior position in any gynaecological unit?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, the effective purpose of the memorandum is to ensure that consultants know what a job involves. They can then decide whether or not they are going to apply. The second point I want to make is that if they applied it would be assumed that they had no objection to undertaking those tasks. Therefore, they are not likely to be asked what their religious views are.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, the noble Lord will be aware that this subject has given rise to concern among many people of widely differing views. He described the cases as "few ". Could he be a little more explicit? In how many cases, proportionately, does he consider that a person with religious or conscientious views opposed to conducting these operations will be excluded by their consciences from applying for the posts?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I do not want to correct the noble and learned Lord, but I do not think I made any statement about there being a "few ". I think that that was said by the noble Earl, Lord Lauderdale.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONENo, my Lords, I think it was in the Answer.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLI beg your Lordships' pardon. I do not want to have to say again that the noble and learned Lord is always right. My understanding is that since the letter was sent out on 19th February the Department has been informed that there were four such instances. This would be a small proportion of the estimated 30 to 35 appointments which are normally made in anaesthetics, obstetrics and gynaecology in a four-months period.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, why was this memorandum sent specifically to regional medical officers and what role are they intended to play in its implementation?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I imagine for the reason that the Regional Health Authorities will have to authorise the making of such appointments, and use their position to ensure that those who will be involved in them see that a job specification is sent out with the form of application.
§ The Earl of LONGFORDMy Lords, is the Minister aware that, with the best will in the world, he has not been able to clarify the position completely this afternoon? Will he be available to see a number of noble Lords and noble Baronesses who would like to discuss these matters with him in order to obtain greater clarification?
§ Lords WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am always at the service of your Lordships' House.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to be more specific? Was it intended that regional medical officers should be instructed to call on certain doctors to discuss with them the whole position?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I do not know the exact procedure and, 1387 therefore, it would be unwise for me to make any comment.
§ The Earl of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, would the noble Lord not agree—
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, this is a matter which deeply concerns the House. But I would remind your Lordships that we have already spent more than eight minutes on this Question, and we have 38 speakers in your Lordships' House this afternoon and two more Questions to come.