EGYPT: SUPPLY OF ARMS (Hansard, 20 June 1975)

§ Lord SHINWELL
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)
My Lords, it has not been the normal practice of successive Governments to discuss individual requests or reports about the sale of British defence equipment.

§ Lord SHINWELL
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the provision of arms to Egypt in the present situation is a clear departure from frequent declarations by successive Wilson Governments since 1967 that they would not interfere to upset the balance of military strength in the Middle East? Is he also aware that President Rabin made a brief visit to London the other day to make a protest to the Foreign Secretary, and also that the British Board of Deputies has made a protest? Am I to understand that these submissions will not be considered?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
On the contrary, my Lords, we are always 1085 most meticulous about considering anything which the Israeli Government, and indeed the distinguished representatives of the Jewish community in this country, have to say to us. Our over-riding objective in the Middle East is a lasting settlement of the dispute between Arabs and Israelis. We remain completely committed to Resolution 242, the purport of which my noble friend understands very well, and also Resolution 338 which calls for meaningful talks leading to a comprehensive settlement. I have taken full note of what my noble friend has said and can assure him that there is no departure at all from the consistent, even-handed policy which successive British Governments have adopted in this matter.

§ Lord SHINWELL
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that following the 1967 war, when a request was made by the Israeli Government for military weapons for which they had actually paid, the request was refused and those weapons were only delivered long after the war was over?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, I do not wish to engage in a discussion of details of this kind of exchange and this kind of contract. However, I would repeat that we consider requests for arms from the Middle East, from whatever quarter the applications come, only in accordance with our policy of seeing that any supplies we make available do not endanger the achievement of a solution in the light of our judgment of the long-term policies of the State in question. This policy has been enunciated in close detail in another place by my right honourable friend the Minister of State, particularly on 10th June 1974.

§ Baroness LEE of ASHERIDGE
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that some of us who are deeply concerned about the survival of Israel are by no means anti-Arab? Is he also aware that we understand the pressures on the Government? But will he, in return, make clear that he understands the pressures on Israel and the Israeli Ministers, and if we look at the balance of power in the world at the present time—the enormous strength and wealth of the Arab world, and the 1086 pressures that are being put on Israel from America? Does the noble Lord not feel that the Israeli Government had some justification in believing that the balance is being tipped against them?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, I welcome the tone and content of what the noble Baroness has said. I can assure her and the House that Her Majesty's Government fully understand the proper concern of the Israeli State and people for their survival within secure and guaranteed boundaries.

Lord JANNER
My Lords, will my noble friend take into consideration the fact that Egypt has obtained a large supply of arms, from both the East and the West? It surely cannot be for the purpose of defence, because Egypt has no fear of any attack, certainly not by Israel. Is he aware that, in the circumstances, any supply of arms would be regarded as a real attack on Israel's situation? Might I also ask my noble friend whether, in the deliberations that take place, it would not be proper for Her Majesty's Government to suggest that the vast flow of money going into Arab States from the oil blackmail at the present time might be used for the benefit of the people of Egypt and the other countries, instead of for the purpose of proliferating wars?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Janner is fully entitled to take the view he does and, to some extent, we would all agree with him. Certainly, I think we would all agree with the latter part of his observations. It is far better, in the Middle East as elsewhere, that whatever wealth there is—and there is considerable wealth—should be devoted to constructive purposes on the basis of toleration in that country.

§ Lord SHINWELL
My Lords, does my noble friend realise that his answers to this Question have been ambiguous and unsatisfactory, for which I hold him blameless. I blame the Government as a whole. Is he aware that one gets a little tired and a little disgusted at the frequent declarations of friendliness by the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary for the State of Israel, which, in view of what has happened, seems to me to amount to sheer hypocrisy?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, I very much regret that my noble friend, for whom I have great respect, should take this view of what my right honourable friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have said. I should think it is perfectly clear—and has been for years—that there is full sympathy and support by my right honourable friends and, indeed, by this Government, as by their predecessors, for the survival and security of Israel. This cannot be achieved by a one-sided attitude. It can best be achieved by a comprehensive settlement based on an evenhanded approach to this difficult and complex question.

§ Lord BYERS
Nevertheless, my Lords, will the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, accept that there are many of us in this House who are distinctly worried about the recent turn of events, and the upsetting of the balance of power in the Middle East by the action of Her Majesty's Government in supplying arms to Egypt?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, I take note of what the noble Lord, Lord Byers, has said. However, it is not our intention, nor do I think it will be the result of our attitude and policy, that the balance of power will be disturbed through any action of ours.

§ Lord LEATHERLAND
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend this question, and I do so as one who is not a friend of Egypt? If Egypt wants to buy arms, is it not desirable from a diplomatic point of view that she should buy them from us or some other Western country, rather than from Soviet Russia, with all that that means?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, there is a very great deal to be said for that view.

Earl FERRERS
My Lords, is one right in understanding from an earlier reply to a supplementary that any request from a country in the Middle East for arms to be supplied will be considered, and that no request will not be considered simply because of the place from which the request is made?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, the noble Earl put more precisely what I endeavoured to say in 1088 answer to an earlier supplementary. We shall consider every request from whatever quarter, against the background of our policy and intention that anything we do in this matter will not endanger the prospect of a comprehensive settlement in the Middle East.

§ Lord BARNBY
My Lords, will the noble Lord say to what extent the terms of payment are taken into consideration when requests are received for the supply of arms?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, to an appropriate extent. But I repeat that the main consideration is what effect any decision we take will have on the prospects for a general settlement in the area.