§ Lord DUNCAN-SANDYSMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will give their full support to the early introduction of direct elections to the EEC Parliament.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)Noble Lords will have noted from the Statement which my right honourable friend the Prime Minister made in another place on 9th June and which my right honourable friend the Lord Privy Seal repeated in your Lordships' House, that the Government intend to play a full and constructive part in all Community policies and activities. The question of direct elections to the European Assembly is one that deserves and will receive most careful study.
§ Lord DUNCAN-SANDYSMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord, may I ask whether we can interpret from his reply that Her Majesty's Government support the principle of a directly-elected European Parliament; because it is very unclear from the Answer which has just been given? If not, how does the noble Lord reconcile that with the joint declaration made by the Prime Minister and the President of Italy in which they declared unequivocally that the European Community must be supported by a democratically-elected Parliament?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the Paris Summit meeting of December, to which I think the noble 656 Lord referred, indicated that as soon as renegotiation and the referendum had been settled, we should be giving to the question of further democratisation of the institutions of the Community very full and favourable attention. I cannot go beyond what I have said, but I should be surprised if this country or any constitutional Party within it were against democratic elections.
§ Lord DUNCAN-SANDYSMy Lords, why have the Government got to reconsider a matter on which they have already expressed themselves in the manner to which I have referred? Is the noble Lord aware that it will be received with dismay on the Continent if we are seen to be hedging and prevaricating on a matter so simple compared with the basic objectives of the Community to which we are pledged under the Treaty of Rome?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the noble Lord who played a prominent and honourable part in the struggle for European unity is not doing his cause the greatest possible advantage in speaking as he does. I did not say that we would reconsider. We shall sensibly consider how to move on with our other partners in the Community on the road to full democratisation. I should have thought that my reply was one of hope and encouragement to all who believe in the principle of democratic election.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he will be kind enough to define "democratisation"? Is it related to the subject of federalism? Is he aware that his right honourable friend the Prime Minister has condemned with bell, book and candle the prospect of federalisation?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I think that my noble friend has indicated in his supplementary question the need for careful consideration of how we move on in this very important matter. There are all sorts of proposals favoured by various individuals, bodies and indeed countries, which must be considered before one can say what will be the final outcome. There must be in this country, and I should imagine in other countries in Europe, what I have called very careful consideration of how to move on.
§ The EARL of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, will the noble Lord say whether the Government have given any thought yet to a matter which has been raised three times in this House since we joined the Community; namely, that our representatives at Luxembourg and Strasbourg should be elected by the House and not nominated by the Whips? Is that going to be carefully and sympathetically considered by the Government?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, that is what I meant by the process of democratisation. It may well be that there will be stages on the road to the kind of situation the noble Earl and others—and I would not except myself from this view—wish to see. The very first stage, and a hopeful stage, is that a recommendation is on its way to the Parliamentary Labour Party that they should at this time select a delegation to the European Assembly.
§ Lord BOOTHBYMy Lords, with all due deference to my noble friend Lord Duncan-Sandys, who is a pioneer of the European movement, may I ask the noble Lord to consider that it is of vital importance to preserve the link between the national Parliaments and the European Parliament; and that during the seven years that I was a delegate to the Consultative Assembly of the Council of Europe we found it of inestimable benefit that Members of that Assembly were also Members of their own national Parliaments, and could therefore preserve the link between the two? Would the noble Lord seriously consider the possibility of direct election of Members of one or the other House of Parliament by one or other of those Houses of Parliament in this country, as the most surely democratic method, and the best method of preserving the necessary link between this Parliament and the Parliament of Europe?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I can assure the noble Lord whose experience, especially in the Consultative Assembly, is most apposite, that what he has said will certainly be very carefully considered. There is a very strong view that the link between national Parliaments and any international assembly that may finally emerge from the discussions shall be fully maintained.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, does it not emerge from the difference of opinion which has been betrayed in this exchange, that we should be wiser to let things shake down a bit after the referendum before proceeding to any new measures?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, as usual in these cases, I could not have put it better myself.
§ Lord POPPLEWELLMy Lords, can the noble Lord say what is the procedure adopted by other members of the Community? Do they elect direct? Do they nominate? What procedure do they adopt?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am not aware that any member State of the Community directly elects or enables its electorate directly to elect to the European Assembly. This is not to say that a great many of them—probably all of them—wish to see the kind of progress which the noble Lord, Lord Duncan-Sandys, pointed out.
§ The EARL of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, regarding the process of shaking down, to which my noble and learned friend has referred, would the noble Lord agree that it might be helpful to that end if time were found by the Government for a debate on the Motion in my name on the Order Paper on this very subject? Would he further agree that, unless and until this House and the other place elect their representatives to Strasbourg and Luxembourg, it will be seen to be somewhat of an insult to that Assembly merely to send nominated members chosen by the Whips?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, no doubt the usual channels will be fully seized of the importance of the noble Lord's Motion.
§ Lord DUNCAN-SANDYSMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware of a very interesting plan which was prepared by the former Foreign Secretary, Mr. Michael Stewart, which covered just what the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, suggested—with which I fully agree—and provided for the direct election of members of the European Parliament, while at the same time maintaining their link with the national Parliaments, which I believe to be of the greatest possible importance? 659 So long as the Committee of Ministers holds the power, it is essential that our representatives in the European Parliament should have contact with Ministers and the Government in their national Parliaments.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I have no doubt that that valuable paper will indeed figure in the consideration to which I have alluded, and so will others; for instance, a paper put forward at about that time by the Dutch Government.