HL Deb 16 June 1975 vol 361 cc663-5

2.55 p.m.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether in the negotiations by Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands and Belgium to purchase the General Dynamics F 16 aircraft Britain as a member of NATO was consulted.

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, Her Majesty's Government participate fully in discussions of defence matters affecting the NATO alliance, but responsibility for the negotiations for the purchase of the selected aircraft rests entirely with the nations concerned.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, I welcome the decision which has been taken by the Governments concerned. But would this not have been a wonderful opportunity for the United Kingdom to assist in the promotion of the standardisation of weapons and military equipment which would have the effect of saving probably hundreds of millions of pounds annually and at the same time would help to strengthen NATO, a much desired object?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I am in full agreement with my noble friend's wish to see a much higher degree of standardisation within NATO. Unfortunately, the question of time-scale enters into it. Whereas the four nations of the consortium had an immediate requirement for an interceptor aircraft, that time-scale did not apply to other members of NATO, including ourselves.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that he has failed to respond to what I said about welcoming this decision? Is not the strengthening of NATO a decision that should be welcomed by all concerned? Why should the United Kingdom contract out of this? May I ask this question, and I hope that it will not be regarded as offensive—certainly not by the Minister personally? Is there some reluctance on the part of the United Kingdom Government to be involved in this very welcome decision because of the reaction of France? Is the Minister aware that France has reacted in a surprising fashion by deciding not to proceed any further with the construction of the Mirage aircraft?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, may I go back to the beginning of my noble friend's question? Of course I welcome this step towards standardisation, but so far as this country is concerned we have our own policy and our own time-scale for interceptor aircraft. The Phantom is now taking over from the Lightning as an interceptor, and in due course this will be replaced by the interceptor version of the Multi-Role Combat Aircraft.

Lord HALE

My Lords, could my noble friend say when there came into force the rule that Britain need not be consulted about NATO purchases? Because time after time in years past, both on the Floor of another place and in Downing Street, I have been told in relation to the products of A. V. Roe of Oldham of the absolute necessity of Britain consulting her allies in NATO before placing forward orders for British aeroplanes.

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, consultation takes place, but the decision must still lie with national Governments.

Lord WYNNE-JONES

My Lords, can my noble friend say how many of the NATO countries are going to purchase the Multi-Role Combat Aircraft to which he has referred?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords. three—Germany, Britain and Italy.

Lord BOOTHBY

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord why progress towards the standardisation of weapons, which everybody approves of in principle, has been so deplorably slow; and why decision after decision is announced almost daily in the Press which puts even further off that progress towards standardisation?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, this is surely one of the problems that arises from somewhat outmoded nationalism.

Lord LEATHERLAND

My Lords, is my noble friend aware of the fact that the theory of standardisation can be carried too far? Does my noble friend recollect—perhaps he does not because he was fighting for us at the time—that during the last war one particular make of British aircraft proved to be vulnerable to German attackers and that therefore it is very useful during any war to have in the air an alternative type of aircraft?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his constructive reminiscence.

Lord DUNCAN-SANDYS

My Lords, while fully supporting the plea which has been made by the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell. may I ask the Government whether they could not make it clear to our allies in NATO that the time for paying lip service to the idea of standardisation is past, and could not Her Majesty's Government take the lead in pressing for action, which means setting up the necessary machinery and having the will to see that decisions are reached? This is the only way by which we can increase the strength of our defences without increasing expenditure.

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I am in full sympathy with what the noble Lord has said. I feel that a mini-debate or an Unstarred Question on this subject would be of value.

Viscount MONCK

My Lords, on this question of General Dynamics, is the noble Lord aware that today is the birthday of my noble friend Lord Aberdare and would he like to wish him many happy returns of the day?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, very briefly I think we are giving him a pleasant present in a few moments.