§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper and to add, with the indulgence of the House, that it was put down before the Question of 10th June by the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will review their announced intention to extend substantial aid to Mozambique, whose Government is reported to be in receipt of financial aid from Communist China and to permit terrorist agents to cross into neighbouring territory.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOENo, my Lords, Her Majesty's Government carefully considered the implications of their aid initiative before any offer was made. Mozambique's economy has suffered very seriously already and her application of sanctions will involve a further serious reverse. Her Majesty's Government are offering this help—the House will be glad to be reminded—as part of a United Nations programme of international assistance to Mozambique.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, in view of the unsatisfactory reply, which appears to give a negative to the Question, can the Chief Whip give any indication of what the commitment would be? Furthermore, how would its size be assessed in relation to contributions from other sources contemplated in the communiqué? Can the noble Baroness say, since it was stated that the contribution was for the economic development of Mozambique, whether there will be need of an assessment of how to divide the expenditure between the economic development of Rhodesia, and violence, for which FRELIMO was organised and which it then had to practise?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I am sorry that the noble Lord finds me negative, but I am afraid that I must be on this subject. I cannot answer in detail about any amounts that will be available. As the House will know, Mozambique will become independent on 25th June and it 492 will be better to discuss the details of the aid offered after Independence. At this stage, I am afraid that I cannot give any information about other people's contributions, either. But I can say that the aid is directed towards the rural development of one of the poorest countries in the world. We have always had substantial commercial relations with Mozambique. The first part of it will be programmed aid, which will go to buy a great deal of machinery from this country; the rest of it will almost certainly go towards rural development of various kinds in the country.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, has the noble Baroness noted the fears expressed by the right honourable lady Mrs. Judith Hart following her resignation, that there might be some implications for the Government's aid programme in her sacking by the Prime Minister? Can the noble Baroness give us an assurance that there will be no reduction in the Government's aid programme for rural development in Mozambique or elsewhere?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, the extremely friendly and highly successful discussions about peace and security in Mozambique and the area around it were conducted by my right honourable friend the recent Minister for Overseas Development and were a great personal achievement of hers. Her Majesty's Government stand by them entirely and we entirely repudiate the implications behind the suggestion made by the noble Lord.
§ Lord BALNIELMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that some of us find it very difficult to accept that after a fairly prolonged period of time the Government are still not able to give any indication of the scale of aid which is to be given to Mozambique, to "reinforce"—I am quoting the words—"and extend the sanctions"? In view of the economic problems facing this country and the probability that it is a very large sum of money, surely the House ought to have some indication as to the scale of aid which is to be given?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, we have made specific proposals, but in deference to the new and independent Government of 493 Mozambique we defer stating them until they are fully independent.
§ Viscount MASSEREENE and FERRARDMy Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that it would be more practical and more civilised to add financial aid to the already large sums spent by the Rhodesian Government on educating the black Africans, in order that they become more fully prepared one day to accept the responsibilities of government? Is the noble Baroness aware that we all hope to avoid the carnage, destruction, bloodshed and tyranny that has, in so many cases so far, resulted from the democratic experiment in Africa?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, in reply to the rather intemperate language of the noble Viscount opposite, may I say first that that is an entirely different question. Secondly, it is up to the present régime in Rhodesia to spend more money on the education of its African population.
§ The Earl of ONSLOWMy Lords, is it not true that if the Rhodesian Government, with the help of Mr. Ennals, can come to some form of settlement according justice to all races in Rhodesia, the question of sanctions will then be removed and the Mozambique-Rhodesia trade can go on to the benefit of everybody?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEAgain, my Lords, that is a different question. But the answer will eventually be, "Yes".
§ Lord COLERAINEMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness, the Captain of the Yeomen of the Guard—
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOENo, my Lords, Captain of the Gentlemen-at-Arms.
§ Lord COLERAINEMy Lords, I beg the noble Baroness's pardon. May I ask whether she will use her influence on Her Majesty's Government to discourage, as far as possible, sabre rattling about sanctions if we really want a settlement? Would she not agree with me that successive Governments of either Party have dealt with white Rhodesians in Rhodesia, and have dealt with white trade unionists 494 in Great Britain, and have tried to bully and hector? Would she not agree that it has been counter-productive here and that it has been equally counterproductive in Rhodesia?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, the influence of the Chief Whip is, alas!, very limited. But I can say that the entire complement of nations of the British Commonwealth, assembled in Jamaica, called for the implementation of sanctions and for aid to Mozambique in carrying them out.
§ Lord AYLESTONEMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend the Leader of the House a procedural question? Many of these supplementaries have arisen out of a personal statement made in another place yesterday. In another place a personal statement is not debatable. Are we in order in debating it here?
§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Shepherd)My Lords, we are not able to debate matters that arise from a personal statement in either House. There has been some allusion to what was said, but I would not say that anything that has been put today was out of order. But in view of the fact that I have been allowed to get to my feet, may I say that I think Question Time has once more been going on for a rather long time, and may I suggest that we move to the next Business?
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, may I ask, since I put the original Question—
§ Several Noble Lords: Order, order!
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, may I ask whether the Chief Whip will note the fact that to many it may seem indecorous that, when the Government have now by reckless expenditure driven the credit of the country down to below a 15 per cent. interest rating—
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, will the noble Lord permit me? I thought I had the sense of the House when I suggested we had reached the stage when we should move on to new Business. I thought that the noble Lord was asking a question of my noble friend. I think that what he was doing, in the sense of the House, was going a little too far. I suggest that he finds another occasion if he wishes to put a statement before the House.