§ 2.53 p.m.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what consultation has taken place with British firms operating in Namibia under agreements with the South African Government in view of the illegality of their exports after 31st May under the United Nations' notice to that Government to declare its intention to withdraw from Namibia by that date.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)My Lords, there have been no consultations of this kind with British firms in Namibia. We have, however, been active in urging British firms operating in Namibia and South Africa to implement good employment practices following the guide lines produced by the Trade and Industry Sub-Committee last year. Our policy on trade with Namibia remains as stated by my right honourable friend in another place on 4th December, 1974.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask him whether he is aware that Sean MacBride, the United Nations Commissioner for Namibia, stated on 14th May:
Goods exported from the territory under agreements with South Africa after May 31st would be regarded as stolen property and could be seized anywhere in the world.In view of that authoritative statement, is it not desirable that there should be 9 some consultations with British companies in Namibia?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am sure that the appropriate Departments of Government will always be ready to discuss with British firms the situation that arises in any part of the world, and perhaps in this part in particular, in the light of continuing circumstances. However, in regard to Mr. MacBride's activity, I must point out to my noble friend that while we are entirely with him—together with my noble friend—in his desire to see Namibia acquire full, free, independent status as soon as possible, we cannot, from the point of view of international legality, accept that the United Nations' Council, so called, is the lawful body to administer Namibia.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord if he would remind the House whether the United Nations' Resolution to which the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, refers was mandatory and, if so, how the Government voted, or, if not, how the Government voted?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, it is not mandatory and we expressed very strong reservations based on legality about whether the General Assembly was competent to set up this Council with this status. This does not detract for a moment from our desire, our determination, to co-operate with other like-minded countries—and, indeed, with the United Nations—in the right way to secure for the people of Namibia their full, free, and independent status.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, resisting the temptation to comment on the United Nations Security Council, and reverting to my Question, may I ask the Minister whether it is not desirable that early consultations should take place with British companies in Namibia in view of the statement by Sir Val Duncan, the Chairman of Rio-Tinto-Zinc, that the company does not regard the present regime in Namibia as illegal, and is not prepared to take notice of what the United Nations said? Is not this particularly important because our Atomic Energy Authority has a contract with RTZ for the purchase of uranium until 1982?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I repeat that Government Departments will always be ready to discuss with British firms any questions, any problems, which arise in any part of the world, and perhaps particularly in this part of the world in the light of continuing circumstances. As to the contract between BNFL and Rossing, deliveries will not take place for another two years, but during those two years I think that one can confidently hope, having regard to what the Prime Minister and the Foreign Minister of South Africa have said quite recently, that an independent and free successor State will have emerged in Namibia before that time. I think that it is in the interests of the industry of this country, and of the Namibian people, that we shall be there as a British firm in that country at that time.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, can the Minister, in clarification of the reply which he gave to my noble Leader, indicate what is the authority in law for the insinuation in the Question regarding the notice?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I have indicated that we, in common with other countries, other Parliamentary democracies which are members of the Security Council, do not regard the action taken by the UN as being firmly based on law. I think that that covers the point that the noble Lord raised.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, does the Minister recognise that the conduct of international affairs depends upon a mutual recognition of those carrying and affecting real power and authority within bounds, and that a claim by the United Nations to upset arbitrarily such authorities, declare them non-existent, without providing any substitute, is simply a recipe for anarchy?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, that may well be. We recognise the de facto position in South-West Africa, in Namibia, and it is right that we should do so. On the question of the United Nations' decision and activity, we, as a founder member and a member of the Security Council, are surely entitled to point out that in our view—and the British view is not one to be easily set 11 aside in these matters—the legal basis for the present United Nations' attitude to Namibia is very flimsy, and, indeed, we would say unfounded.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, in view of the statement that he just made renouncing legality, would the noble Lord agree that, in South-West Africa since the Ovambo elections, when SWAPO was entirely discredited, the situation which may have existed previously with regard to 31st May has been entirely obliterated?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSNot entirely, my Lords. We think it is essential that SWAPO should be brought into any discussions affecting the future of Namibia.