§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are in a position to make a Statement on the suggestion now being considered by the Post Office that there should be a cheap rate for Christmas cards provided these are posted by a certain date.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of INDUSTRY (Lord Beswick)My Lords, as I promised in my reply to my noble friend on 17th July, I have ensured that this proposal for a concessionary Christmas postal rate has again been fully considered. The Post Office, with whom the decision rests, have concluded, reluctantly, that they cannot accept the cost penalty involved.
§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, while believing that the Minister would have wished to give a more favourable reply, might I ask him whether he realises that people will feel that such an attitude from a Corporation which have just declared a record deficit of some £306 million is quite incredible? Does he further realise that it appears to people that the Post Office are not prepared to consider constructive suggestions from anyone, and are the Government able to do anything about this?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, as for the readiness of the Post Office to consider constructive suggestions, I am bound to say that on this occasion they did consider it because I insisted that they should do so. My noble friend is wrong when she says that this should be granted because of the deficit. The fact of the matter 1172 is that it would add to their deficit, and because they have such a deficit it is impossible to suggest that they should make this concession.
§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, might I just ask my noble friend whether he is aware that I would not agree that the deficit would be added to? Does he not feel that if the millions of people who wish to send Christmas cards could do so, and if these could be sent in the month of November, this would be a great help to the Post Office?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I have myself argued the case that it would be possible to get the same revenue at a lower unit cost, but the research which the Post Office have done—and, after all, they are professionals in this matter—
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I wish that some noble Lords opposite who grin so loudly would themselves try to run this sort of business. As I was saying, they are professionals in this business and they have gone into this matter very carefully, and the Post Office Users' National Council has also been concerned to spur on these researches. But the fact is that last year they lost on each unit of Christmas mail at the price then charged, and we cannot complain that they have a deficit and demand that it be brought down if, at the same time, we demand that they reduce their charges.
Lord GRENFELLMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that his Answer will cause great disappointment to many old age pensioners and the disabled, many of whom communicate with each other only at Christmas time? Is he aware that they will be very unhappy at not receiving Christmas cards? Is he further aware that the charities which look after these people have already bought their Christmas cards, and that they bought them thinking at the time that the postal price would be such-and-such an amount, but they are now being told that that amount will go up, so they will have millions of cards on their hands?
§ Lord BESWICKYes, my Lords. It is a fact that there will be disappointment and no one is more disappointed than I, because I thought there was merit in the suggestion put forward. However, 1173 the truth is that we have established the Post Office and we have demanded—nobody more than noble Lords opposite—that this institution should be run at a profit. They have been running at a deficit, partly because when noble Lords opposite were in power they would not allow the Post Office to recoup their costs properly, and it is impossible to charge them with running a profitable service and at the same time demand that they charge unprofitable rates.
§ Lord BLYTONMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that in the last fortnight I have sent two letters to my home town, posted in the House of Commons Library on Monday night, and that they were not received until the following Saturday, and people have asked why I have not written to them? I have received a message this week that the letters have now been received. I wrote to Sir William Ryland about this and pointed out that if letters are taking that long to arrive it is obviously cheaper, in terms of time and money, to use a 5½p stamp rather than a 7p one.
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I am sorry for my noble friend's experience but I am afraid it does not change the arithmetic put to me about this concession.
§ Lord AIREDALEMy Lords, is this not an occasion for a special stamp to be issued, which could be sold to stamp collectors all over the world, bringing in money virtually for nothing for the hard-pressed Post Office?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, there are all sorts of possibilities, but if one gets down to the detailed figures one sees that the fact is that to make this concession the Post Office estimate that they would increase their deficit, and we have demanded that they reduce it. I am told that if there was a ½p concession—and a ½p concession is not the sort of figure that would make a difference in terms of the total traffic—they would need 42 million extra units of Christmas mail before they even recouped that concession.
§ Lord DAVIES of LEEKMy Lords, might I ask my noble friend to be kind enough to ask his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Social Services whether at Christmas time, when bonuses are given to old age pensioners, 1174 this issue could be taken into consideration and perhaps a concession made for old age pensioners by means of a bonus?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, there is no bonus this year, because there will be a general increase in the social service rates. But, again, it is impossible to demand on the one hand that public expenditure should be cut, and to ask on the other hand for extra concessions.
§ The LORD BISHOP of COVENTRYMy Lords, at a time of great and rapidly increasing unemployment, might this scheme not give worth while work for a period of up to two months to quite a large number of otherwise unemployed people? Further, if it were to run at a loss, might that not be amply compensated for by the enormous enjoyment of the vast numbers of people who were able to communicate with each other at Christmas?
§ Lord BESWICKYes, my Lords. There is great merit in this idea of increasing the total amount of community enjoyment, but we did not establish the Post Office for that purpose. They have to pay their way, and unless there is agreement by way of a special subsidy for this sort of concession, it is impossible to criticise the Post Office.
§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, I am not trying to be offensive, but does my noble friend realise that many of us are not impressed with the researches of the Post Office, for they have been too wrong too often? Would it be possible, seeing that we have the sympathy of my noble friend, to ask the Post Office whether this could be reconsidered and whether the Christmas cards affected by the scheme could be posted in November, so that they would not add to the Christmas rush?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, the point about my noble friend's original concession which appealed to me was that it would be possible to demand that the cards were posted in good time before the Christmas period, so enabling the Post Office to even out their delivery costs. However, I am told that one difficulty here is the degree to which the Post Office are geared to a two-tier post. It would be almost impossible in places where there is mechanisation to have a three-tier post, 1175 so, anyhow, there would be the extra cost in the sorting. The second point, so far as November is concerned, is that I should have thought it would be unacceptable to the majority of people to demand that they should post for Christmas by the end of November. However, since the discussions which I have had were on the basis of a month-period ending on 18th December, I will see whether there is any difference in the arithmetic when it is applied to the month of November.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that there are some national charities which derive more than half their annual income from the sale of Christmas cards, and that this is a decision which many of them will greatly regret and may make all the difference in plunging them into insolvency?
§ Lord BESWICKYes, my Lords, I know that. I also know that the Christmas card manufacturers themselves have strenously pressed their case, but the fact is that the Post Office were not established as a charitable organisation.
§ Lord MAELORMy Lords, I have been on my feet eight times. Will my noble friend tell me why Christmas cards for this year have not been displayed in the Library? Is it because it is known that none of them will be sold?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I should have to have notice of that question directed to the proper person.