§ Lord GLADWYNMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what weapons have actually been standardised as a result of the labours of the Eurogroup and what, broadly speaking, was the nature of the latest Europackage.
Lord WINTER BOTTOMMy Lords, there is a large number of projects where Eurogroup countries have contributed to standardisation by collaboration in development or production or by buying from other member nations of the Alliance, even though so far no weapons have been standardised for use by all Eurogroup countries. The latest Europackage, which was a statement on the Eurogroup countries' defence achievements in 1974 and plans for 1975, was attached to the Communiqué issued after the Eurogroup Ministerial meeting held in Brussels on 9th December 1974. I am arranging for a copy to be placed in the Library of your Lordships' House.
§ Lord GLADWYNMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that not very encouraging reply to a Question which, as your Lordships are aware, I originally put in a debate on the Defence Estimates several months ago and to which I received no answer, may I additionally ask the Government whether or not they think that a serious effort should shortly be made at least to begin with the harmonisation of what may be called a new generation of conventional defensive weapons by sensible co-operation between all the European Members of the North Atlantic Alliance, thus reinforcing their whole defensive posture and saving immense sums on research and development as well?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, a serious start has been made. The Eurogroup has been set up. As I mentioned in that debate, there is a group called "Eurolong term" which meets regularly to agree tactical concepts—my favourite subject—and is proving very 886 successful. Without agreeing on tactical and strategic concepts one cannot get a common approach to weapon procurement, and until we have a common philosophy as to how we should fight a war is it difficult to get a common policy towards the design and manufacture of weapons.
§ Lord DUNCAN-SANDYSMy Lords, does the noble Lord recognise that standardisation offers really the only possibility of strengthening our defences without a large increase in expenditure? Does he not agree that it is really a scandal that for so many years lip service has been paid to the idea of standardisation and so little achieved? Would the British Government not assume that there can be no general agreement, but take the lead in pressing this point in the appropriate Councils of NATO and not readily accept "No" for an answer?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, first of all I would not accept that it is a scandal. The fact is that we are dealing with an alliance, with a number of nations with different national concepts and interests. Her Majesty's Government are doing as much as they can to work towards the system of commonality, which every sensible individual agrees is necessary. But, as the noble Lord must know, there are major obstacles to be overcome, and we are not the most powerful member of NATO.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, having had some experience of the Eurogroup, may I ask whether the noble Lord would agree that the only possible way in which we can make progress is for politicians, Ministers of Defence and Foreign Ministers, to make the progress? If we leave it to the military, nothing will happen.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I would agree totally with the noble Lord. But may I remind the House that, when my right honourable friend the present Chancellor was Secretary of State for Defence, an attempt to get commonality was started with the creation of the Eurodinner Group, which has now turned into the Eurogroup, and this country has in fact given a lead in creating a common European approach to weapons procurement.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDEMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he remembers that I raised this question when the "Panorama" programme on NATO was shown some time ago? If it was he who answered my question very sympathetically, does the noble Lord remember that he said that he hoped there would be a debate on NATO? May I therefore ask him whether, at the earliest possible moment, we may have a full debate of the whole issue and see what action, if any (which I hope will be possible) can be taken?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the question of a debate on the subject must go through the usual channels.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDEMy Lords, the noble Lord said that he hoped there would be a debate on NATO, so surely he can make some arrangements.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I hope that the usual channels, which are listening, will do something.
§ Lord SLATERMy Lords, in view of the reply that my noble friend has given to the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, are we to understand that the object and purpose behind the Question is of building up a European armed force so far as our membership is concerned with the European set-up, and to build it up into a Third World force?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I do not think that was the point behind the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn. He was asking what action we had taken to get common equipment throughout the various national armed forces of Western Europe, and I tried to answer that question as best I could. Perhaps I might make an additional point; I said that I would put a copy of the Eurogroup Report in the Library of your Lordships' House. I will add to it a chart showing areas where a large measure of commonality has been achieved.
§ Lord DUNCAN-SANDYSMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he will now answer the question I asked; namely, whether the Government will themselves take a lead in again raising 888 this matter to see if any progress can be made?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I said that we had given a lead. We have given a lead in Europe, and the Secretary of State has started talks in an effort to achieve a better two-way traffic across the Atlantic.
§ Lord LEATHERLANDMy Lords, does my noble friend recall that in about 1957 a policy was promulgated to the effect that this country should cease in future to trouble about normal non-atomic weapons? Presumably that statement of policy has now been thrown aside. May I have an assurance from my noble friend that on this question of common procurement France is no longer the odd man out but is now regarding herself as a member of the team?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I could not give that assurance but I can say that there are areas of common research, development and procurement between France and ourselves.