§ 2.45 p.m.
§ Viscount HANWORTHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, bearing in mind the increased problem of evicting squatters and the fact that many foreign students regard Britain in this respect as a haven, they will now make squatting a criminal offence.
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, the Government recognise the urgency of this matter and the strength of public concern over it. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary would prefer not to consider amendments to the criminal law until the Law Commission's report on Conspiracy, which will deal with offences of entering and 321 remaining on property, is available. The Government are confident that the Law Commission will have regard to the urgency of the problem in the preparation and completion of their report.
§ Viscount HANWORTHMy Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. May I ask whether any encouragement is being given to local authorities to license squatting where there is unoccupied property belonging to the local authority? There is the problem of housing these people, and if it can be done properly it is beneficial.
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, that is a matter for my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment, but I will gladly draw his attention to what the noble Viscount has said.
§ Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLSMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that until comparatively recently the blatant unfairness arising from this ancient Statute was not known either by those who wanted to exploit it or by those who may be the victims of it? It is now well known on all sides that this weakness arising from this ancient Statute exists. We know that there are certain sections of the community who will rush to take advantage of it. In those circumstances, I am certain that the nation is of the opinion, now they are aware of it, that both sides ought to get together to deal with it in both Houses of Parliament. Is the noble Lord aware that that is the feeling of the nation and that the House ought to act upon it?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, as the noble Lord will no doubt be aware, the Law Commission published a Consultative Working Paper on this matter in June of last year. Since then they have received a substantial number of comments. They are now considering the matter and will revise their proposals in the context of those comments.
§ Lord MERRIVALEMy Lords, can the Minister say in what other countries of the European Community squatting is not a criminal offence?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, not without notice.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that although certain squatters are almost criminal the nation is also very worried about the homeless, and that in many cases, the two things go together?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, this is one of the matters which was considered very carefully by the Law Commission and which I am sure will again be considered very carefully before they publish their revised proposals.
§ Lord LEATHERLANDMy Lords, can my noble friend tell me what is the legal position of a nice, quiet Mr. Jones who returns to his suburban home with his family after being on holiday and finds it inhabited by half a dozen long-haired, lousy louts? Is he entitled to exert force to get rid of them?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, I think it is undesirable to answer hypothetical questions of that kind. I hope that the person concerned would summon the local police who, I am sure, would take appropriate action.
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, while welcoming what the Minister has said regarding the Government's recognition of the urgency of this problem, may I ask whether he can be more specific about when they intend to legislate for what is causing a great deal of public concern to innocent people?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHThe Government are well aware of the urgency of this problem, but clearly they cannot publish their proposals until they receive the final report of the Law Commission which is expected early next year.
§ Lord DRUMALBYNMy Lords, can the noble Lord say what is the appropriate action for the police to take?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, this is one of the many points which was at the back of my mind when I indicated that I did not think it was appropriate to answer hypothetical questions regarding how the police would handle a particular situation. It would depend upon what happened. There is no difference between this side of the House and the other regarding the 323 urgency of this problem. It was recognised by our predecessors who referred the matter to the Law Commission.
§ Lord HALEMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there is the strongest possible inhibition on the part of the British police force, either against interfering in questions of tort—but not of crime—or against entering a house and taking action, and I frankly do not believe there is any action they can effectively take? Will not the noble Lord reflect on the matter and feel that giving this advice to call in the police in domestic disputes may be a very unhappy statement to have made?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, I indicated that I thought they would be wise to consult the police about their rights. That seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable statement to make in answer to the question. I cannot conceivably reply to hypothetical questions about what action the police would take in certain circumstances. It would depend on a large number of factors; but, as I indicated, this is a serious matter and it is being treated with seriousness.
§ Lord PANNELLMy Lords, is it not a fact that the tenor of the Minister's reply is that we cannot do anything on a great variety of subjects until the Law Commission report on all of them? I hope I do not do his right honourable friend an injustice, but is the theory behind this that we cannot do anything until we know about everything?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHNo, my Lords; the question is a little simpler than that. The previous Government referred this matter to the Law Commission; they published their preliminary views, comments have been received and we expect their final report early next year. The Government will then come forth with their legislation.
§ Lord DERWENTMy Lords, is the noble Lord saying that we are not going to have any result until next year?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, this is a highly complicated question of law. It is quite impossible to put forward legislative proposals until we receive the final report from the Law 324 Commission on this matter, and that report we expect in the early part of next year.
§ Lord LEATHERLANDMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the hypothetical example which I quoted is rot a highly complex affair, and is he further aware that I have known of cases in which the police have been called and have confessed their inability to take any action?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, that is certainly one of the matters that we can look at when we receive the report of the Law Commission.
§ Lord RAGLANMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that there are hundreds and, perhaps, thousands of perfectly sound empty houses around London? Is he aware that these incite people to occupy them, and many otherwise quite law-abiding citizens do so in order to make use of a commodity which they feel should be used and not left empty?
§ Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLSMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that next year is not good enough? Things will happen between now and next year; everybody is aware of it and the Government, with the support of the Opposition, ought to do something about it at once.
§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Shepherd)My Lords, this is clearly a matter on which the House has great concern. I would have thought that what has transpired at Question Time, and what my noble friend has said has indicated a serious view of the situation, but that we have probably gone as far as we can and we ought now to move to the next Question.