Lords Sitting of 17 July 1975

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR On the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Southwell.

EEC AND 35 NATION SUMMIT
Lord CHELWOOD: My Lords, in rising to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper, may I point out that there is a misprint and that the word "free" should have appeared after the word "affairs" in the last line. It is a fairly obvious omission.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is the collective view of the European Community that sufficient progress has now been made in the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe to justify holding a 35 nation Summit meeting; and whether they will give an assurance that it is the intention of the Community to withhold their agreement to any declaration which does not restate unequivocally the right of the countries of Central and Eastern Europe to hold free elections and conduct their national affairs from foreign interference or the threat of it.
The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts): My Lords, a decision has been taken in principle by all participants at Geneva that Stage III of the Conference should take place on 30th July, provided that the few outstanding issues can be quickly settled. It is the hope of all the members of the European Community that this date will shortly be confirmed. I cannot give the noble Lord the assurance he seeks. But all 35 participants will give their approval by consensus to a Final Act which will contain full and satisfactory statements of the principles of self-determination of peoples, human rights and fundamental freedoms, and non-intervention in the internal affairs of other States. These
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principles are to be applied throughout Europe and without reserve.
Lord CHELWOOD: My Lords, I am grateful for that reply. It is very welcome news, as another place was told on Tuesday, that the agreed Geneva text includes a flat rejection of the Brezhnev doctrine. May I ask how much value Her Majesty's Government attach to the Soviet promise to that effect?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, the so-called Brezhnev doctrine has no validity in international law. Indeed, the statement of principle embodied in these agreements makes it clear that the Soviet Union, like every one of the 34 other States, are expected to implement this and other parts of the agreements conscientiously and thoroughly.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON: My Lords, does it make sense to go in for all this performance to come to an agreement which everybody knows the Soviets have not the least intention of executing?—and probably in our hearts we are grateful that they will not do so.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, not everybody has the same perception of knowledge and prophecy as has my noble friend. I think that all parts of the House, and all sections of the country, welcome the initiative taken by our predecessors to agree to a workmanlike agenda which has resulted in worthwhile achievements. We shall, of course, be watching to see how these are implemented, but any doubts we may have about how they may be implemented by one country or another should not prevent us from taking this initiative, grasping this opportunity and seeing how far it will go.
Lord GLADWYN: My Lords, do the Government believe that the rather general formulae, now apparently agreed for acceptance at the Summit conference in Helsinki at the end of July, will promote an atmosphere in which real progress will be made at the even more important conference on mutual and balanced force reductions?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I very much welcome that intervention. It it true that we may hope that the conclusion of these agreements

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may help the even more important discussions in Vienna on mutual force reductions and—who knows?—may create an atmosphere which affects further success of the SALT talks.
Lord BALNIEL: My Lords, while that may be the Minister's hope, is it not a fact to be seriously noted that while the Russians, for an exceedingly long time, have been calling for a security conference and it is now to result in a Summit meeting, the much more important mutual and balanced force reduction discussions which the Western World has been wanting for a long time have made absolutely no progress whatsoever so far?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I would not say they have made absolutely no progress, but I agree that the progress so far has been disappointing. As the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, reminded us, this is an even more important field of discussion than that at Geneva. This is no reason—and I am sure the noble Lord will agree—why we should not persist, as we have done for nearly two years in Vienna, to seek an acceptable, workable measure of force reductions in Europe.

POST OFFICE: CHRISTMAS STAMP
3.11 p.m.
Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the increased postal rates, both actual and proposed, they will ask the Post Office to consider the issue of a cheap stamp for Christmas cards, provided these are posted by a certain date.
The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of INDUSTRY (Lord Beswick): My Lords, the introduction of any such scheme would be a matter for the Post Office who, I know, have given the suggestion careful thought in the past. It would not be appropriate for the Government to press the Post Office at this
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time for this concession, but I will ensure that the proposal of the noble Baroness is considered.
Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that Answer, may I ask whether he would agree that if we had a really cheap Christmas stamp the Post Office would sell millions of stamps from which they would receive revenue they probably sorely need? Bearing in mind that I have asked that the cards shall be posted well beforehand, does he not agree that if we do not have cheap Christmas stamps people will be unable to send cards? Can my noble friend say whether there is any hope in that direction?
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, as to the calculation or estimate that the total revenue from Christmas card traffic at the present postage rate will be less than it would be at a lower rate, my own personal view, and it is only a hunch, is that the noble Baroness is probably right. The difficulty about the scheme that she originally put forward was the possibility of abuse. It would be difficult to tell what was and what was not a Christmas card.
Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY: My Lords, on that matter may I ask the Minister whether he would agree that if we had a special Christmas stamp which was date stamped with a certain date, that would obviate the difficulty about which he has spoken?
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, the question of a special Christmas stamp would not obviate the difficulty because that stamp could be put on any letter. As my noble friend knows, because I discussed it with her, much more hopeful is the proposal that there should be a cheaper rate for letters which would be subject to a greater delivery time, and which might be posted before a given date. That is the matter which I will ensure the Post Office Board considers.
Lord KILMANY: My Lords, arising out of that reply, may I ask the noble Lord whether he will bear in mind that there are important considerations of sentiment, religion, family feeling and good comradeship concerned with this question? Would it not be a great pity to do anything which would discourage relations far apart from keeping in touch

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with one another at Christmas time? Equally, that would prevent comrades all over the world, not necessarily of one country, from keeping in touch with one another on this particular occasion. Could the Government ask the Post Office to reconsider the matter from that point of view?
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, that is one point of view which the noble Lord shares with me and, I have no doubt, with the overwhelming majority in this House. I accept what he has said. As I have said, my personal view is that the total revenue could be less if the rate of postage were as high as is now intended. These are matters for the Post Office; the decision is theirs. I have undertaken, however, to see that that point of view is properly considered.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNE-SIDE: My Lords, will the noble Lord bear in mind, having regard to his very disappointing reply, that many manufacturers of Chrismas cards will be put out of employment? Therefore, there are two problems: helping people to send Christmas cards, and helping the people who will produce the Christmas cards.
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, that is also another factor. I am disappointed that the noble Baroness thinks my reply was disappointing: I have said that I will ensure, to the best of my ability, that the point is considered.
Lord SEGAL: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that many national charities are heavily dependent on the income which they derive from the sale of Christmas cards, and are deeply concerned about the anticipated fall in sales as a result of the increased postal charges? Could my noble friend urge the Post Office to make an early announcement regarding this?
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, my noble friend can make great speeches about this, but it is also a fact that people are making great speeches about cutting down the Post Office deficit. The Post Office are committed to cutting the deficit. If we have a scheme
which is open to abuse, we have to recognise their arguments. I have already said that there is an aspect of this matter which warrants further consideration, and I will see that that consideration is given.
Baroness WOOTTON of ABINGER: My Lords, would my noble friend think it worth while to suggest to the Post Office that the difficulty of the special stamp might be overcome if the Post Office were to issue specially franked envelopes marked "Christmas card only" which would have to be sent unsealed?
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, we have absolutely no guarantee that something else will not be put in those specially marked envelopes. I do not think a special stamp is relevant; it is the rate of postage which is important. It would be possible to have a lower rate of postage and, as I have said, that is a matter which will be considered.
Lord GRENFELL: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, as has been said, many charities get most of their revenue from Christmas cards? Noble Lords will agree that in these difficult times we should encourage all charities to play their part. A small reduction in the postal charges would be of great assistance to charities, and to those who send Christmas cards.
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, that is a point which, with others, I will see is considered.
Lord MAELOR: My Lords, would the Minister agree that even if these stamps are wrongly used, it will pay the Post Office handsomely if millions rather than a few score of Christmas cards are send through the post?
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, if my noble friend wants to know, I will tell him, in confidence, that I have had a private wager with certain people that if the Post Office charge the present rate on Christmas cards their total revenue will be less than it would otherwise. But it still remains the fact that the system which has been suggested is open to such abuse that the total revenue from other non-Christmas card postage could be lessened. It is a complicated matter and I hope that the House will leave it at that.
Baroness GAITSKELL: My Lords, would not the same argument apply to raising the ordinary stamp charges higher and higher? Would it be subject to the law of diminishing returns in revenue?
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, the fact is that the first-class postal traffic, has, I understand, already decreased by 26 per cent.

RHODESIA: CONSTITUTIONAL CONFERENCE
3.19 p.m.
Lord ALPORT: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will call a constitutional conference on the future of Rhodesia, in view of the possible early escalation of armed conflict in Southern Africa.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, as I told noble Lords on 11th June, my right honourable friend intends to convene a constitutional conference as soon as the Government consider it opportune to do so. Naturally, the Government share the noble Lords' concern that an escalation of armed conflict should be avoided.
Lord ALPORT: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he agrees that, although it is important that the right preparations should be made before any diplomatic conference is gathered together, an invitation to a conference given to both sides in Rhodesia at the present time might enable them to escape from the dug-in positions which they are in? If this took place with the support of the President of Zambia and the Prime Minister of the Republic of South Africa, it is possible that Rhodesia might be spared what is otherwise inevitable; that is, a very serious escalation in violence there, ending in a situation which none of us at present can predict.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I notice the suggestion made in the first part of the noble Lord's supplementary question. I am quite sure that my right honourable friend will wish to study what he has said. I agree with the second part, in which the noble Lord draws attention to those very serious conclusions about what may happen unless we move fairly quickly to a conference.
Lord BARNBY: My Lords, would the noble Lord correct my memory on this
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point? I may be wrong but I seem to recollect that there have of late been several statements from Government sources to the effect that it would be better now to leave agreement to the Africans, white and black, within Rhodesia. May I draw the noble Lord's attention particularly to column 413 of the Official Report in another place on 11th June in connection with the right honourable gentleman the Foreign Secretary? The statement made there would seem to give that indication. Secondly, would the noble Lord remember that the ANC is now in such disarray that it is unlikely to be wholly representative of African opinion, whereas there are other African bodies, including the State Council of Chiefs which represents, according to their tribal customs, two-thirds of the Africans of the nation?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I would certainly not impugn the noble Lord's statistical veracity, but I differ a little from him in his interpretation of the effects of "disarray", as he called it, among the members of the ANC. I think that most observers would hope that such disarray would cease so that both sides could coherently and cohesively come together for discussions. As to the first part of the noble Lord's question, we have repeatedly said that we look to the peoples of Rhodesia to come together and state how they can live together on a more satisfactory basis. However, it was decided that this might be helped if there was a Ministerial visit and, of course, my right honourable friend's visit to Rhodesia during the last few weeks has proved a helpful influence in bringing about the cohesion and discussions in Rhodesia, to which I have referred.
Lord BARNBY: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that explanation, may I ask him finally whether he has any idea from what external sources the funds are obtained which keep the ANC going, since they have internally no organisation for raising funds of such scope?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I think the noble Lord is perhaps straying a little from the original Question, but if he cares to put down that particular Question I will do my best, as always, to answer it.

OIL SLICK EXPERIMENTS AND BIRDS
3.24 p.m.
The Earl of KIMBERLEY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will postpone the oil slick control experiments in the North Sea until August, thereby saving the lives of many thousands of newly hatched sea birds.
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, no. These experiments are part of a series in connection with oil recovery from the surface of the sea, designed to lead to the establishment of a viable system for the collection of oil and to study the behaviour of oil. The greatest possible care is being taken to avoid bird casualties and to date—over half-way through the trial—none has been reported. One purpose of these experiments is to reduce the hazards to sea birds from oil pollution.
The Earl of KIMBERLEY: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his reply, may I ask whether it is not an offence under Section 1 of the Prevention of Oil Pollution Act 1971 to discharge oil? Secondly, could Her Majesty's Government give an assurance that, if future tests are to be held, more than two or three weeks' notice will be given to the conservation societies concerned with both bird and marine life? Finally, with the technological skill which we have in this country, may I ask whether these tests could be carried out in artificial tanks?
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, the answer to the last part of tile noble Earl's question is, "No". Regarding the first part, I understand that the Norwegian Government, who are principally concerned here, were consulted. They have an observer on board and he will be participating in the tests throughout the period. As for consultation with other bodies, that did take place; and, although I have seen Press reports to the contrary, the Nature Conservancy Council have welcomed the trials and they,
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too, have an officer aboard monitoring the tests.
Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBY: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he saw the letter two days ago in The Times from Dr. Bourne of Aberdeen University? If so, is my noble friend telling your Lordships that the complaints and apprehensions expressed are unfounded?
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, I have not read that letter. I have read the article in the New Scientist and I have checked on the veracity of that article. I am told that the reported statements made by the Nature Conservancy Council are inaccurate, and that the facts are as I have given them; in other words, up to date, half-way through, no bird has been damaged.
Lord HAMNETT: My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether, in relation to the present oil slick experiments in the North Sea, efforts to preserve the lives of sea birds will produce the deaths of thousands of others?
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, this is a controlled experiment over a very limited area and it has been undertaken after very careful consideration. Responsible scientists are involved, the Conservancy Council has been consulted, the Norwegian Government have been consulted, and they are all in agreement that this experiment could be most useful in saving bird life in the event of an accidental spillage.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROY: Clearly, my Lords, while such experiments can be helpful to conserve wild life, are the Government completely satisfied that it is necessary as part of them deliberately to create oil slicks, as have been reported, which could float about for some time? If the Government are completely satisfied, is it possible for them to make this known more widely?
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, as for this slick, deliberately created and carefully controlled, floating about over a period of time, this is obviously something which will need to be watched. But I am given to understand that one of the encouraging pieces of information received so far is that one piece of equipment is collecting oil at the rate of a

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hundred tons per hour in good conditions. Obviously, that is the sort of thing which needs to be developed.
Baroness WHITE: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend to look at the consultation arrangements with the voluntary organisation? I am Chairman of one organisation which is closely concerned. We have received no communication and there has been no consultation at all. It is not adequate simply to consult the statutory body—namely, the Nature Conservancy Council—without also consulting some of the voluntary bodies which give a lot of time and money for this purpose.
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, I will certainly inquire why the body referred to by my noble friend was not consulted. One fact which has arisen from the consultation is that nobody disagrees with holding tests, but they all say that they should be held in a different place and the difficulty lies in ascertaining a place which would be accessible without causing discontent somewhere.
Viscount THURSO: My Lords, are all these experiments designed to discover how to control, or whether the methods we have for controlling work? Because if these are purely experiments to discover how to control, it seems to me that what the noble Lord has said about careful control cannot be taken all that seriously.
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, I am not quite sure of the implications of the noble Viscount's question. I have said it is a question of a controlled experiment, but that experiment is using various methods of disposal; for example, sinking, burning, absorbing and collecting by the piece of equipment I have just described.
Viscount THURSO: My Lords, perhaps I might put it in this way. If you do not know how to control an oil slick, how do you carefully control an experiment?
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, would the noble Viscount take into account the possibility that if you have ideas it is sometimes necessary to experiment, in order to prove whether your ideas have validity.
The Earl of ONSLOW: My Lords, are all these oil slicks successfully dispersed, or are some of them still floating about?
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, I am inclined to say that with his natural ebullience the noble Earl is exaggerating again. There are not "all these oil slicks"; there is one area of oil of some square miles to the North-East of the Shetlands—one only—and it is floating about under supervision, carefully controlled to that extent. Not only is it being dispersed by experimental methods, but in some cases the oil is being recovered, and in good order.
Viscount THURSO: My Lords, may one ask how big it is?

BUSINESS
The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Shepherd): My Lords, the Chief Whip has asked me to acquaint your Lordships that dinners will be available on Monday, Tuesday and Thursday of next week, as she anticipates the House will be sitting to a late hour.

USA BICENTENNIAL CELEBRATIONS
3.31 p.m.
Lord SHEPHERD: My Lords, I beg to move, That an Humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that Her Majesty will give direction that, to mark the Bicentennial celebrations of the United States of America, there will be made on behalf of Parliament to the Congress of the United States, as representative of the American people, a loan for one year of one of the two original copies of Magna Carta dated A.D. 1215 held by the British Library; that a permanent showcase be presented to the Congress for the display of the document; that the document be replaced at the end of the loan period by a replica; and that the presentation be made by representatives from both Houses of Parliament.
My Lords, the United Kingdom and the United States over the years owe much to each other. No one, I think, would question the proposition that this Parliament, as an act of friendship to the Congress of the United States, should offer something unique from our heritage

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to mark the Bicentennial celebrations. An original copy of the Magna Carta will be regarded by most who treasure democracy as most suitable, and I believe it will be highly appreciated by our friends in the United States.
If the House accepts this Motion, as I am sure it will wish to do, arrangements will be made for a delegation from both Houses to make the presentation and for an appropriate ceremony here to mark the occasion. We hope that this can be arranged early next summer. Preliminary discussions have been taking place through the usual channels as to what form the ceremony might take. Because of the value of Magna Carta, special arrangements will need to be made for its transport and security. In lieu of insurance, the Government have agreed to give a guarantee to the British Library that Parliamentary authority would be sought to make good any loss or damage within an upper limit of £1½ million.
In 1972, in response to an invitation from the former President of the United States for Britain to participate in the American Bicentennial celebrations, the then Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs set up a Committee under the chairmanship of Lord Lothian to recommend what form Britain's contribution should take. In addition to this gift, the Committee have proposed that Her Majesty's Government should make a gift of a bell to the American people to be hung in Philadelphia; support a number of manifestations in the Arts in the United States and institute, together with the Government of the United States, a joint programme of Fellowships in the creative and performed Arts.
I am sure the House will be in favour of proposals which illustrate the common heritage of this country and the United States and also look to our future friendly relationship. I therefore commend the Motion to the House in the expectation that it will be accepted as an expression of our friendship and good will to the Congress and the people of the United States of America on this very momentous occasion. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That an Humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that Her Majesty will give direction that, to
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mark the Bicentennial celebrations of the United States of America, there be made on behalf of Parliament to the Congress of the United States, as representative of the American people, a loan for one year of one of the two original copies of Magna Carta dated 1215 AD held by the British Library; that a permanent showcase be presented to the Congress for the display of the document; that the document be replaced at the end of the loan period by a replica; and that the presentation be made by representatives from both Houses of Parliament.—(Lord Shepherd.)
3.35 p.m.
Lord CARRINGTON: My Lords, I do not think there will be anybody in the House who will wish to oppose the Motion moved by the noble Lord the Leader of the House. These proposals are imaginative, and I am particularly glad that a Committee on this whole matter is sitting under my noble friend Lord Lothian. If I may be permitted just one reflection, I am sure we are the only people in the world who would celebrate a considerable defeat by sending something we value 3,000 miles across the ocean; but I suppose we are none the worse for that.
Lord BYERS: My Lords, Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, I understand, took two or three minutes; I will try to emulate his brevity if not the quality of what he said. I think that Magna Carta, according to our standards, may be regarded as a rather limited document, but that would be the wrong way to approach the matter because it has become, very rightly, a symbolic document. And liberty, I believe, has to be redefined afresh by each generation. What is important to us about Magna Carta, and what I think our American cousins plainly value about it, is not its letter but its spirit. I need not say that that spirit is peculiarly close to the heart of the Party which I represent, and what we feel on an occasion such as this is the sense of enterprise shared with our American cousins.
I personally am delighted to be associated witht this Motion because I had the privilege of starting the exchange scholarship system from Westminster School in London, just near to this House, to Milton Academy, Massachusetts. It

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gives me a deep sense of satisfaction to know that the present American Ambassador started his career at that school in the year I left.
3.37 p.m.
Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBY: My Lords, with great deference to the American people, may we not ask a few questions about this auspicious occasion? What is the connection between Magna Carta and the Declaration of Independence of the American Colonies? Are we to have any reciprocal loan from the United States of any of their historic documents? If so, which could it be? Could we not look at a copy of the Declaration of Independence to remind us of one of the follies of our policies of 200 years ago? When I was Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster we had possession of some copies of Magna Carta which we loaned to the American people for a grand tour of the United States on another occasion. It was necessary to send custodians with these precious documents on the round of American cities to ensure their safety and, at the same time, to give the maximum coverage for the American people to have a look at the foundation of British liberty. What I am not sure about is why so soon after that occasion, which if my recollection is correct was the 950th anniversary of the signing of Magna Carta, do we have to send the same documents over there again. Have we nothing else to show them?
I ask these questions in the friendliest possible spirit, but I do not see why what should be a debate should be turned into a kind of illuminated address to the American people. Of course we have much in common with them. Of course we owe them a great deal. We are after all, as Bernard Shaw once said, two peoples divided by a common language; we do not always understand them and they certainly do not always understand us. Let us have amity and accord, and if this is going to set the seal on friendship between the British and the American peoples I am all in favour of it. If it is therefore a token of our regard and of our affection, I have no quarrel. But if any deeper significance is to be attached to this occasion, then
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I want to delve a little more closely into the history of the matter.
Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON: My Lords, as my ancestor, the first Lord Mowbray as recognised by Parliament, was a grandson of one of the 25 Barons of Magna Carta whose statue is up above the Gallery, and as I am an Honorary Member of the Baronial Order of Magna Carta in the United States, I can only tell your Lordships that this proposed measure of Her Majesty's Government will be giving very great pleasure if it is acceded to.
The Earl of CROMARTIE: My Lords, without disagreeing in any way with anything any noble Lord has said, I should like to suggest that Magna Carta has absolutely nothing to do with an important part of the United Kingdom—Scotland. I suggest we also send to the United States a copy of the Declaration of Arbroath in 1326 to acknowledge that there are a lot of Scots in America.
Lord SHEPHERD: My Lords, we are well aware that there are many Scots in the United States. Some of us who attend debates in your Lordships' House way well wish that there could be a few more Scots in the United States! The Magna Carta is a document from which many of our Parliamentary liberties have sprung. This is a gift for that period by the British Parliament to the Congress of the United States. Any other document or anything else which is of significance may well be of interest to the United States, but I take the view, as do the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, and other members of his Committee, that because of its special significance to Westminster, Magna Carta is the right document to send to Congress. For Congress is visited by many hundreds of thousands of people from all parts of the United States, and this would be a golden opportunity for them to see this particular document. My Lords, all gifts are open to question. I myself do not believe that this one will be open to question by the people of the United States.
On Question, Motion agreed to nemine dissentiente: Ordered, that the said Address to be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.

SEX DISCRIMINATION BILL
3.41 p.m.
The MINISTER of STATE, HOME OFFICE (Lord Harris of Greenwich): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do again resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Harris of Greenwich.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The Lord ROYLE in the Chair.]
Clause 50 [Establishment and duties of Commission]:
Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBY Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBY moved Amendment No. 47A:
Page 30, line 21, after ("individuals") insert ("of whom at least one half shall be women").
The noble Lord said: I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name on the Marshalled List. At the same time, I confess quite frankly that my heart is not in the matter. However, I am very susceptible to feminine influence and I yielded to the entreaties of some of my friends in another place who apparently still remain doubtful about the balance of composition of the Commission for Equal Opportunities. Personally, I feel that any such fears are groundless. If my noble friend is able to dispel any lingering doubts that the balance will not be right, then I shall have great pleasure in asking for the leave of the Committee to withdraw the Amendment. I am sure that there is no need to spend any time upon it. I feel that I have discharged a pledge of honour to my friends in another place with, I hope, reasonable sincerity and, possibly, effectiveness.
Lord GARDINER: May I remind my noble friend Lord Houghton of Sowerby that the Select Committee considered this question. I do not think we were in favour of more statutory women, but we suggested putting into the Bill the following clause:
"Any Minister of the Crown who is authorised by or under any enactment whether passed before or after this Act to appoint the members of any Board, Commission, Committee or other public body or the holders of any public office shall consider women equally
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with men for the purposes of such appointment".
I rather regret that this Bill does not contain that clause.
Baroness SEEAR: I oppose the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby. I understood that we were opposed to quotas in any shape or form. We want the best people to be appointed to do the job, whatever may be their sex.
Baroness SUMMERSKILL: I agree with the noble Baroness. Curiously enough, when it came to the best people we always found in the past that they were male. Time after time noble Lords have heard me ask my noble friend why it is that a certain committee is composed of men and that no one woman serves upon it. Unless we put down our foot at this stage the same thing will happen again. Men have not changed in this respect. They all want power, even on a Commission of this kind. This is a modest proposal. I should have thought that more than half the members of this Commission ought to be women. My reason for saying that is that surely this Bill should be regarded as of greater interest to women than to men. Perhaps we are trying to prevent discrimination against a very few men, but in the main we are trying to prevent discrimination against women. Therefore, I should like to see on the Commission individuals who will be vigilant, and I believe that a woman would be more vigilant than a man in observing whether discrimination has been exercised. Furthermore, we are told in the Bill that the Commission will be concerned with the Equal Pay Act. Again, equal pay is a woman's concern, and I feel that the individuals on the Commission should be particularly concerned with the Equal Pay Act. Therefore, I say that at least half of the members of the Commission should be women. I support my noble friend, although I am sorry to hear him say that he has very little interest in the matter.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: I have been waiting to use this argument to my noble friend Lady Summerskill for, I think, two days and this is the first opportunity I have had to do so. I should like to draw her attention to the very persuasive argument used in the Standing Committee in another place by

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my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary at the Home Office, with whom I think she is well acquainted, which justifies the Government's position on this matter and is partly the explanation of why my noble friend Lord Houghton of Sowerby moved this Amendment in rather restrained terms. I think that is a fair way of describing his position.
First, may I say that I agree with my noble friend Lady Summerskill on one point, that there are far too few women on boards appointed by Ministers. As a result—his picks up a point which was made by my noble and learned friend Lord Gardiner—it is the intention of the Government to consider tabling an Amendment at Report stage which is designed to ensure that the principle of non-discrimination on the grounds of sex is reflected in the making of appointments to public boards, although the clause will not be enforceable under Clause 3. Clearly, it is desirable for us to indicate once and for all that the appointment of a single woman to the board of a nationalised industry or any board appointed by a Minister is quite inappropriate now, and we are endeavouring to meet that point by the Amendment which we are considering putting down at Report stage.
My noble and learned friend Lord Gardiner referred to the Report of the Select Committee. May I remind the Committee of what the Select Committee said on this point; namely:
"The Committee were unanimous in rejecting the requirement for a fixed number of women on the Board. Since the aim of this legislation is to enable women to be considered as persons in their own right and not to be categorised by sex, it seems singularly inappropriate to demand a quota of women on the Board."
And, indeed, that is the point which was made by the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, a few moments ago. I must make it quite clear that the Amendment will not indicate any form of quota, but it will to a certain extent meet the point made by my noble and learned friend and, I hope, the House when it is considered on Report stage. On that basis, I hope that my noble friend will not press his Amendment.
Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBY: I am satisfied, and I beg permission to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.50 p.m.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS moved Amendment No. 48:
Page 30, line 39, at end insert—
("( )The Commission shall discharge its functions in accordance with arrangements made by the Commission and approved by the Secretary of State.
( )The said arrangements may provide for the discharge under the general direction of the Commission of the Commission's functions in relation to any complaint, claim or any other matter falling to be dealt with by them, or in relation to any class of such matters, by a group of members of the Commission selected by the Chairman of the Commission; and where any such functions are in accordance with such arrangements to be discharged by a group of members, anything done by or in relation to the group in or in connection with the discharge of those functions shall have the same effect as if done by or in relation to the Commission.")
The noble Viscount said: I had my attention drawn to a parallel piece of legislation regarding the Race Relations Board. May I say straight away that I do not think one ought necessarily to import wholesale into one's approach to the Bill that is now before the Committee everything that is in the race relations legislation. On the contrary, one should be very careful to see where the differences lie. But in this respect I observe two points laid down in Section 14 of the later of the two Acts relating to this subject, which contain with adaptations the same provisions that I put in this Amendment, and I suggest to the Committee that there is some merit in re-introducing this for the Equal Opportunities Commission.
There are really two points here. First, under the parallel provision relating to race relations, there is, I suppose, a certain amount of co-operation and discussion betwen the Board and, I think it is in that case, the Home Office, about the way in which they fulfil their functions. Taking that in the context of this Bill we have not just one Department, the Home Office, but other Secretaries of State as well. We have the Department of Education and Science, the DHSS, the Department of Employment, the Scottish Office and the Welsh Office. I imagine they would all be included in the definition of

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"Secretary of State" for the purposes of this Bill, and I think it would be very valuable that the various Secretaries of State and their Departments should be involved in the working out of the practical arrangements for the Equal Opportunities Commission, and indeed the general approach that they adopt to the various subjects within the aegis of those Departments.
The second point is that I believe the headquarters of the Commision are to be in Manchester. I certainly would not wish to demur from that because we do indeed wish to provide for some decentralisation and for the setting up of important Departments of State in places other than London. Nevertheless, except in Northern Ireland, this particular body will be exercising its jurisdiction all over the British Isles, and therefore we need to have sub-divisions of that body who will do their jobs in various parts as independent units of the Commission.
It may be that one does not need these Amendments. Nevertheless, it is a marked omission from the Bill that whereas in the Race Relations Acts this provision is spelt out, there is nothing equivalent in the Bill. I think probably the approach ought to be just the same, and therefore it is worth while putting it into the legislation itself in order to make quite sure that the same sort of general arrangements apply and that sub-committees, or groups of members of the Commission, can exercise the full powers of the Commission individually without in a formal way calling the whole panoply of the body to their support. I beg to move.
Baroness FISHER of REDNAL: Would my noble friend elicit, for the benefit, perhaps, of the female Members in this place, how many commissions are settled out of the capital City? Is this the first Commission that has its headquarters outside London?
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: If I may deal first with the point made by my noble friend, I could not answer her questions without some fairly substantial investigation; but as the noble Viscount pointed out a moment ago, it was the policy of the previous Government and it is the policy of this Government, to try to achieve some decentralisation of offices. In my view it is wholly right, as the noble Viscount has said, to ensure that when
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new organisations of this sort are set up they move to areas outside London. Indeed, as my noble friend will be aware, this is the position with regard to a substantial number of Government Departments which, over the last few years, have moved out of London.
Turning now to the point made by the noble Viscount, the Government are indebted to him for having drawn our attention to it. As he rightly said, this is a provision which was inserted in the Race Relations Act, and I entirely agree with him that that does not by itself mean that it should be introduced into this Bill. Nevertheless, I think he has made a persuasive case. We have looked into this matter and, if he will be good enough to withdraw his Amendment, the Government will introduce an Amendment on this point at the Report stage.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS: I am very much obliged to the noble Lord. I have never yet drafted anything right—yes, I did once, and the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, after having refused it on three occasions, on a matter of drafting, said it was then contrary to policy. Nevertheless on this occasion if the noble Lord will do better than I can, I will happily withdraw my Amendment now.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 50 agreed to.
Clauses 51 to 55 agreed to.
Clause 56 [Power to obtain information]:
3.56 p.m.
Lord DRUMALBYN Lord DRUMALBYN moved Amendment No. 49:
Page 33, line 14, leave out from ("unless") to end of line 16 and insert ("the Commission has undertaken in the notice to pay or tender to him the necessary expenses of his journey to and from that place").
The noble Lord said: Clause 56(1)(b) enables the Commission by notice of the prescribed form served on him in the prescribed manner to require any person to attend at such time and place as is specified in the notice, and subsection (4) equates the penalty for non-compliance with the penalty for neglecting a witness summons. It follows, therefore, that it must be made absolutely clear to the person who is summoned that his expenses

1365
will be paid before he makes up his mind whether or not to attend.
It would be quite wrong to require a person to attend if he was in any doubt as to whether or not his expenses would be paid. The second and perhaps rather minor point is that the Commission obviously will not necessarily know where he is coming from and therefore could not assess in advance the expenses, or tender them in advance. I am not certain whether my drafting is right but I think the idea should commend itself to the Government. I beg to move.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: I looked at this matter with some care because I am bound to say that the Amendment appears to be unnecessary and I hope I shall succeed in persuading the noble Lord that this is so. Subsection (3)(b) of Clause 56 says that the notice to attend a formal investigation by the Commission:
"shall not require a person—
(b) to attend at any place unless the necessary expenses of his journey to and from that place are … tendered to him."
The effect of this Amendment is twofold: first, it substitutes for actual payment what could be described as a promise to pay. I am not sure that that takes us very far; but, secondly, it provides that payment of expenses shall be by the Commission. Even without the Amendment it is obvious that in a very large number of cases the Commission would, of course, pay. But there are circumstances where the Commission might issue a notice at the request of an organisation being investigated and, in those circumstances, it seems to us that it is perfectly appropriate for that organisation to be the people who would carry the burden of the travel expenses incurred.
Therefore, with respect to the noble Lord, it seems to us that the effect of the Amendment would be to lead to increased public expenditure and I do not really believe that it is altogether justified, for the reasons I have endeavoured to set out.
Lord DRUMALBYN: I think the noble Lord has put forward a perfectly understandable case. What he is really saying is that the clause does not state who is paying the expenses but, equally, it does not state that the Commission has
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to undertake to pay the expenses in an appropriate case where it should pay the expenses. I wonder whether the noble Lord could look at it again?
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: I will gladly look at the point, but if the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, studies in Hansard tomorrow what I have said, I hope he will feel that his point has been met. Certainly I will look again at it.
Lord DRUMALBYN: I am much obliged to the noble Lord. What he is really saying is that "tendered" is the equivalent of the words I have put down.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: The point is that in most cases there is no doubt that the Commission will pay, but in a number of cases where they are acting on behalf of someone else in order to effect their attendance, it is reasonable that that organisation should pay rather than the Commission.
Lord DRUMALBYN: I accept that. What I said originally was simply that it is essential that the person required to attend should know in advance that his expenses will be paid or tendered by someone. Perhaps the noble Lord will look at the matter again. In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 56 agreed to.
Clause 57 [Recommendations and reports on formal investigations]:
4.2 p.m.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH moved Amendment No. 50:
Page 34, line 20, leave out subsections (2) and (3) and insert—
("(2)The Commission shall prepare a report of their findings in any formal investigation conducted by them.
(3) If the formal investigation is one required by the Secretary of State—

(a) the Commission shall deliver the report to the Secretary of State, and

(b) the Secretary of State shall cause the report to be published,

and unless required by the Secretary of State the Commission shall not publish the report.
(4)If the formal investigation is not one required by the Secretary of State, the Commission shall either publish the report, or

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make it available for inspection in accordance with subsection (5).
(5) Where under subsection (4) a report is to be made available for inspection, any person shall be entitled, on payment of such fee (if any) as may be determined by the Commission—

(a) to inspect the report during ordinary office hours and take copies of all or any part of the report, or

(b) to obtain from the Commission a copy, certified by the Commission to be correct, of the report.

(6) The Commission may if they think fit determine that the right conferred by subsection (5)(a) shall be exercisable in relation to a copy of the report instead of, or in addition to, the original.
(7) The Commission shall give general notice of the place or places where, and the times when, reports may be inspected under subsection (5).").
The noble Lord said: If I may, I will speak to this Amendment and also to Amendments Nos. 51 and 52 at the same time. In another place, my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary agreed to consider whether a requirement should be imposed on the Commission to make reports of formal investigations available for inspection. We think it is right that reports should be published, as they will be where the Secretary of State requires a report to be submitted: but in cases where no such requirement is made, we consider it right that these reports should be available for inspection. I beg to move.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS: I am sure that is right. I do not want to pick any quarrels with the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, on that. I am entirely in favour of these things being made public. But I would draw the attention of the noble Lord to one point; that is, the provision in subsection (6). Of course, it is always good to make sure that, in the drafting of legislation we have covered all the possibilities. We should also make sure we keep up to date. But the fact remains that there are large numbers of registers and other matters of public interest open to inspection by the public. We have now got a photocopying machine, invented by someone called Mr. Xerox, I rather think—a Greek gentleman, as the noble Lord the Deputy Chairman of Committees has reminded me. If we provide that his works should be available instead of the original in the subsection and do not do
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it for copies of the register under the Town and Country Planning Act or a myriad of other statutory provisions, I wonder whether we shall not throw doubt on the validity of those.
It seems to me one ought to consider whether one is not being too pernickety about it, and I do not like subsection (6) for this reason, because common sense will provide for it anyway. If we put it on the Statute here, you throw doubt on the validity of doing it anywhere else. Would the noble Lord look at the point? It is only a matter of convenience and elegance; otherwise the principle of this is entirely acceptable to me.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: I would be glad to look at the point again.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 57, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 58 [Restriction on disclosure of information]:
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: I beg to move Amendment No. 51, which is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 34, line 39, after ("Commission") insert ("or made available for inspection under section 57(5)").—(Lord Harris of Greenwich.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: I beg to move Amendment No. 52.
Amendment moved—
Page 35, line 7, after ("publication" insert ("or for inspection").—(Lord Harris of Greenwich.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 58, as amended, agreed to.
4.8 p.m.
Baroness SEEAR Baroness SEEAR moved Amendment No. 53:
After Clause 58, insert the following new clause:
Codes of practice
".—(1) The Commission may issue codes of practice containing such practical guidance as the Commission thinks fit for the purpose of eliminating discrimination and promoting equality of opportunity.
(2) When the Commission proposes to issue a code of practice, it shall prepare and publish a draft of that code, shall consider any representations made to it about the draft and may modify the draft accordingly.
(3) If the Commission determines to proceed with the draft, it shall transmit the draft to the Secretary of State who shall, if he approves of it, lay it before both Houses of Parliament.
(4) If within the period of forty days beginning with the day on which a copy of the draft is laid before each House of Parliament, or, if such copies are laid on different days, with the later of the two days, either House so resolves, no further proceedings shall be taken thereon, but without prejudice to the laying before Parliament of a new draft.
(5) In reckoning the period of forty days referred to in subsection (4) above, no account shall be taken of any period during which Parliament is dissolved or prorogued or during which both Houses are adjourned for more than four days.
(6) If no such resolution is passed as is referred to in subsection (4) above, the Commission shall issue the code in the form of the draft and the code shall come into effect on such day as the Secretary of State may appoint by order by statutory instrument.
(7) An order under subsection (4) above may contain such transitional provisions or savings as appear to the Secretary of State to be necessary or expedient in connection with the code of practice thereby brought into operation.
(8) The Commission may from time to time revise the whole or any part of a code of practice issued under this section and issue that revised code, and subsections (2) to (7) above shall apply (with appropriate modifications) to such a revised code as they apply to the first issue of a code.
(9) A failure on the part of any person to observe any provision of a code of practice shall not of itself render him liable to any proceedings; but in any proceedings brought under this Act any code of practice issued under this section shall be admissible in evidence, and if any provision of such a code appears to the tribunal or court to be relevant to any question arising in the proceedings it shall be taken into account in determining that question."
The noble Baroness said: This is an Amendment of some considerable substance, in that I am proposing here that the Commission should be empowered with suitable safeguards to draw up a code of practice for the implementation of the Sex Discrimination Act. I hope this would include the Schedules to the existing Bill which cover the Equal Pay Act 1970. There are two major reasons why I believe it would be extremely useful to have a code of practice which would be used before tribunals in trying to establish that a woman has been discriminated against or treated unfairly under the Equal Pay Act 1970.
This Bill and the Equal Pay Act 1970, as revised in the Schedule to this Bill, contain a number of very general con-
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siderations which will have to be worked out by the tribunals in very great detail. It is not plain to see, as one reads through either this Bill or the preceding Act, just how this is to be interpreted. I will not weary the Committee with a large number of examples, but the whole interpretation of the concept of indirect discrimination, for example, is one that is very much open to discussion. Cases which will be generally regarded as cases of indirect discrimination, and those which will not will be matters of concern both as to the women as to whether they have a case, and the people who are advising them, and the industrial tribunals which have to see, when the Bill becomes an Act, that the Act is in fact administered.
Similarly, the Equal Pay Act now embodied in Schedule 1, Part II of this Bill, contains a number of points about which we are not at all certain at present with regard to how these matters are to be interpreted. There are matters regarding the meaning of "terms and conditions of employment", and the meaning of "broadly similar". Under the Equal Pay Act, a woman is entitled to the same pay as a man, if she can establish that her work is broadly similar to that of a man. The wording of the Act gives us some clues as to what is meant by "broadly similar", but these are by no means definite and clear cut. There is a great deal of uncertainty in the minds of people who are now preparing themselves, line by line as it were, for the implementation of this legislation in places of work, as to what precisely the legislation in both these Acts will mean in practice.
This may not be immediately apparent to your Lordships, but when you get down to looking at what it means in terms of particular jobs, the Bill leaves a very great deal of uncertainty in the minds of a number of people. In order that this uncertainty should be removed, it would be of great help if codes of practice could be worked on, and some of these uncertain areas were studied in great detail and embodied in codes of practice; thus both the individual woman and the people advising her and the industrial tribunals who are faced with this legislation, in an area which is novel to them in a large number of ways, will have the assistance they will need in

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seeing that this legislation is properly implemented.
So the first reason why I should like to see a code of practice and the opportunity to quote a code of practice before a tribunal is that it would be of real assistance in making this legislation work. That is the first point. The second point is that, because the implications in real situations of both these two pieces of legislation now incorporated in the same Bill and in the ultimate Act are very far-reaching, and because it is going to depend on how employers and trade unions in practice apply these things, the sheer working out of the code of practice would have a valuable educative effect on both unions and employers involved in discussions on it. What is more, it will work only if unions and employers, in training courses, in discussions, in seminars up and down the country, are able to get across what the legislation really means.
A code of practice is something with which industry is already familiar, because we have had it in connection with other legislation. It was, after all, one of the very few things which the Labour movement was prepared to retain from the Industrial Relations Act. This is a tribute to the idea of having a code of practice. We are used to reading these things, but if you are conducting a supervisors' course and you present them with the Sex Discrimination Act or the Equal Pay Act you do not get very far, unless you have something much more concrete than the wording of an Act to present to them. You can say, "This is the code of practice and this is what it means in certain circumstances". The chance of getting it understood in places of work up and down the country is greatly enhanced. I believe that the educative effect of having a good code of practice is just as important as its value in bringing cases before tribunals, because both aspects are of the greatest importance. I beg to move.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS: I wonder whether I could ask the noble Lord a question before he replies. This is a matter which was debated in another place, and the honourable lady the Parliamentary Under-Secretary at the Home Office—
Baroness SUMMERSKILL: She has been mentioned once or twice.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS: She has not only been mentioned once or twice, but rightly so mentioned.
Baroness SUMMERSKILL: I thank the noble Viscount.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS: She had some arguments against this. As I understand it, there is no prohibition against the Equal Opportunities Commission issuing codes of practice, and the difference between what they will be able to do with this Amendment and without it is solely concerned with what appears in subsection (9) of the proposed new clause, whereby the code of practice would be like the Highway Code if this Amendment were passed, and not if it were not passed. In other words, it will be evidential and will be able to be produced in the tribunal or court where the matter is being tried. Therefore, I think there is a fairly narrow point concerned in the Amendment.
What I should be more interested in the noble Lord explaining to us is this. We are going to have, I suppose, a number of trial cases which will take the form of a number of decisions upon extremely disparate matters in all sorts of fields. It will happen on employment, on indirect discrimination, on non-intentional discrimination; all sorts of sets of circumstances are going to be brought before various courts or tribunals in order to have some principles established. I think this will be very helpful. I come back to what I keep on mentioning in this House, that we have a paucity of references for this sort of thing under the ordinary commercial machinery in this country.
It is provided in Clause 67 that there shall be a register of non-discrimination notices, and I suppose that that sort of thing, since it can be the end result of an appeal process under Clause 65, will give one an indication of what the courts, the county courts or the sheriffs courts, or the industrial tribunals, have said on a case brought before them by the Commission. But the ordinary case that is taken to the
industrial tribunal or the county courts or the sheriff courts, or being readily available to other people. The industrial tribunals are better served in this respect than county courts. Your

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Lordships will find in the Library a series of reports called the Industrial Tribunal Reports, which are a regular and proper series of law reports, including these matters, at all stages as they go up the hierarchy. You can see there what the industrial tribunals have said on dismissal and on equal pay, and no doubt on cases which will be before them under this Bill. But you do not get that for the county courts; there is no place where county court decisions are reported. I stand subject to correction, but I do not think the sheriff court decisions are reported either.
What I would suggest to the noble Baroness is not so much that we should have codes of practice, and that these should be evidentially admissible in the courts, as that we should get a collection of decisions on particular matters, which would be much more apposite than codes of practice because they would be much more specific, and make sure that they are available to members of the public, to those who may think they are being discriminated against and those who may be discriminators. What can the noble Lord tell us about this? I believe that it is at least equally important to find out what has happened as to lay down in advance, in rather vague terms—and I think, inevitably, in rather broad terms—what ought to happen. If I can inject that into this discussion, I think it is something that was not touched upon in another place and something on which we should like some guidance.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: If I could take first the point made by the noble Viscount, I should like to look into this point. It is something which was not discussed in another place. I think the noble Viscount is quite right, and it is highly desirable that people should be made aware of these judgments, because they will go to the very heart of the matter. I will look at this to see whether it is appropriate to do anything before Report stage, or whether it can be done by some other means, and I will write to the noble Viscount.
On one point I would certainly agree with the noble Baroness, though my view of the matter is very similar to the one put by the noble Viscount; namely, that I do not think the analogy of the Highway Code is appropriate to
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this Bill. As the noble Baroness indicated, this was discussed in another place. The noble Viscount pointed out that a decision was made on this, and the Amendment before us today is in significantly more moderate terms than the one put down in another place. But I would agree with her that there is a major communication problem here, that people should be made aware of their rights. I think at the moment, in the initial stages, it is the responsibility of the Government but thereafter, as soon as the Commission becomes more active, it will be a major part of their work.
There is, of course, nothing to debar the Commission from publishing voluntary codes on any aspect of the Bill. The problem before us is whether it is desirable to have a statutory code, rather than a voluntary one. There is no doubt that in some aspects of the Bill they will wish to do this. The discussion we had earlier on the Amendments initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, on problems concerning advertising, is a clear indication that it would be helpful if the Commission gave guidance in this area. But the problem of a statutory code is still, in my view, as persuasive as it was when another place discussed this point. First, a statutory code cannot in any way replace the need to comply with the Act itself. Secondly, it is not necessarily true that a person who has appeared to comply with the code has not committed an unlawful act of discrimination under the terms of the Bill. It would not, therefore, constitute in any way a successful defence.
Thirdly, I do not think the code would help a court or tribunal in deciding the relevant question and it is essential to keep on coming back to this point. The relevant question is not whether a defendant has treated a particular woman less favourably than a man, but whether it was done on the grounds of her sex. In no way would the existence of a statutory code help anybody in determining that. Fourthly, and perhaps the strongest argument of all, I think it could introduce some element of confusion into what is already a fairly complex situation.
I recognise that the noble Baroness will not be wholly satisfied with this reply, but I would put it to her that there is no difference between us on the question of the importance of making people aware

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of their rights under this Bill. The Government, and certainly the Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the Commission who have already been appointed, recognise that this will be one of their principal responsibilities. However, I would put it to the noble Baroness that this can be done by a series of voluntary codes and there is no necessity to have a statutory code which, as I have indicated, from the Government's point of view is rather difficult to accept.
Baroness SEEAR: I am sorry that the Minister has not been prepared to go a little further than this. Written voluntary codes of course will be published and will be useful, but perhaps the Minister is not fully aware how much uncertainty remains in both these two Acts. May I draw his attention, for example, to the fact that in the Schedule—the equal pay part of which is now the combined legislation, where he is talking about whether the job is the same or broadly similar—all we are told to guide us is that the difference, if any, between the things she does and the things that they (the men) do is not of practicable importance in relation to the terms and conditions of employment. Accordingly, in comparing her work with theirs regard should be had to the frequency or otherwise in which differences occur in practice, as well as the nature and extent of those differences. I can see endless arguments going on about this, and one industrial tribunal coming down in favour of saying that two jobs are broadly similar and another tribunal equally sincerely trying to arrive at an honest conclusion coming to a quite different conclusion. That is why I am not entirely happy with the suggestion of the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, that we shall build up case law as guidance for the tribunals.
I think we shall build up some extremely confusing case law and that industrial tribunals really need much guidance in advance. It may be that a voluntary code will do it, but something of very considerable substance and set out in considerable detail; otherwise very conflicting findings will
be made by industrial tribunals. If that happens, people will not know whether or not they have a case to bring. However, in view of what the Minister has said I will ask the leave
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of the Committee to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 59 agreed to.
Clause 60 agreed to:
Clause 61 [Conciliation in employment cases]:
4.25 p.m.
Lord JACQUES Lord JACQUES moved Amendment No. 54:
Page 36, line 12, at end insert—
("(2A) In proceeding under subsection (1) or (2), a conciliation officer shall where appropriate have regard to the desirability of encouraging the use of other procedures available for the settlement of grievances.")
The noble Lord said: This Amendment seeks to provide an additional subsection to Clause 61. It would put a statutory duty on conciliation officers to encourage the use of voluntary grievance procedures or any other appropriate procedures in cases under the Bill or the Equal Pay Act. In practice, conciliation officers—who are part of the independent Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration service—already do this in appropriate cases relating to unfair dismissals. However, this Amendment will give this practice a statutory basis and will ensure that all parties to a dispute, where appropriate, will be encouraged to use voluntary procedures wherever these are in existence.
The new subsection will not in any way restrict the freedom of the conciliation officer or of the parties to a complaint. The conciliation officer is required only to encourage the use of voluntary procedures where he considers it to be appropriate. If he advises the parties to consider the use of voluntary procedures, it is entirely a matter for the parties to decide whether or not to do so. Finally, I should add that the Government have, in another place, tabled Amendments to the Employment Protection Bill placing a similar duty on conciliation officers in relation to cases they will be dealing with under that Bill and under the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act 1974. Thus the relevant Statutes will all be in line. I beg to move.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS: I am sure that this is right, and in order that I do not bowl a Thomson or a

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Lillee delivery at the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, in relation to the similar provisions which we will need to have for the enforcement of Part III under Clause 63, may I warn him in advance that on that clause I shall ask how we are to do the similar exercise when we do not have the advantage of the machinery provided by the Department of Employment and have to rely on the lawyers instructed by those who may be involved in a case. I do it at this stage, because we have not quite got there and the noble Lord might like to have some warning on it. I shall not ask the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, anything about this, but I shall raise it in the debate on the next clause.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 61, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 62 agreed to.
Clause 63 [Claims under Part III]:
4.28 p.m.
Baroness SEEAR Baroness SEEAR moved Amendment No. 55:
Page 37, line 42, leave out ("four") and insert ("two").
The noble Baroness said: This Amendment has to do with enforcement in relation to the educational position. To many of us, the educational side of sex discrimination and getting changes in the educational field is of primary importance—primary in both senses of the term, because if we do not get changes in the educational field we shall whistle for a great many changes in subsequent aspects of discrimination. Therefore, to get an alteration in the educational curricula and in educational opportunities for girls is absolutely vital, if at the end of the day this Bill is to bite. In view of this, it is unfortunate that whereas—and I think it is to this that the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, was referring a moment ago—there is a procedure through the industrial tribunal for speedy enforcement of cases in the employment field, there is no such speedy system of enforcement in the educational field.
The preliminary stages of enforcement in the educational field are in the hands of the educational authorities themselves, and the Secretary of State for the Department of Education. This is somewhat
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objectionable, on the grounds that the appeal is going from the people who consider they are being discriminated against in the field of education, to people who are associated with the alleged act of discrimination; whereas in the case of employment it will go to a completely independent party—that is the industrial tribunal. This puts the enforcement machinery in the education area in a less satisfactory position than that in the employment area. Of course it is true that subsequently a case can go to court, but it has to go through this procedure of the Secretary of State.
As it stands, there must be this period of four months after a case has been referred to the Secretary of State. Let us consider what this means in reality. Supposing a girl wants to enter a class for mechanical drawing and she is told, as some have been told, that such classes are for boys only. She starts off this elaborate procedure for getting this decision changed and it is possible for this appeal to be lodged for no less than four months with the Secretary of State. I suggest that by that time the young woman in question would have opted for needlework and her chances of going for mechanical drawing will be finished, possibly for her lifetime. It may be that the decision when it is finally handed down from on high, will be helpful to another young woman who later wants to do mechanical drawing, but it will be too late if we are to have this sort of delay for any individual who wants to get into a class which starts in September or October, or whenever it may be, if she has to wait for as long as the procedure laid down in the educational section of this Bill. It is for that reason that we propose that it should be reduced from four to two months. This is a matter of urgency and we believe that it should be treated as such.
The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of EDUCATION and SCIENCE (Lord Crowther-Hunt): I must emphasise that the four months figure is the maximum time to be allowed between the submission of a complaint to the Education Minister and the time when the complainant, if not satisfied, could take proceedings in the county or sheriff court. The purpose in this is to produce as much speed as we possibly can

1379
because the hope is that when a simple complaint of precisely the nature the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, mentioned is made—of refusing a girl entry to a class in mechanical drawing—it would in fact be dealt with very quickly indeed through the channels of the Department and on the basis of the appeal to the Education Minister, and we do not see any real difficulty in that.
There may be much more complicated situations. We would confidently expect that the majority of complaints would be dealt with in a very much shorter time, and many within the period of two months mentioned by the noble Baroness. We would really expect that to be so. However, there will undoubtedly be situations where the consideration of a complaint is not as straightforward as that, where it has to be thoroughly investigated, and then it might have to take some time, especially in the case of a complaint by any person that he or she has been discriminated against by a body in the public sector of education in contravention of Clauses 22 and 23. There may be some real complexities here.
It will normally be necessary for the Education Minister in complicated cases to make inquiries of the local education authority or other body concerned, and they in turn might need to consider it in their committees and make inquiries at the institution involved in the complaint, and delay could sometimes take place if the investigation has to be made outside term time. There is also the point that it may be necessary on some occasions to consult Her Majesty's Inspectors of Schools and we might in certain circumstances have to go back to the complainant for further information. Thus, there could be complexities here, but I hope, and it is certainly our intention, that most complaints will be resolved during the process of investigation; that that will be done very quickly indeed and that the use of directions or orders, which the Secretary of State can use in the last resort, will be very limited, although of course Education Ministers would not hesitate to use their powers in the last resort.
If the maximum period were to be reduced to less than four months it would, in the view of the Government, allow
1380
Education Ministers insufficient time on some occasions for proper consideration to be given to certain complaints and could lead to extra work and duplication of effort by causing some complaints, which might otherwise have been settled by the Education Ministers, to go to the county or sheriff court. I appreciate that the noble Baroness is worried about this procedure in which Education Ministers have a large part to play—because the noble Baroness mentioned this on Second Reading—but I am doing my best to assure her that the purpose of this is to produce a speedy situation and a speedy solution, and it will be in only a small number of cases in our view that the period of four months will be required. I hope that in the light of what I have said the noble Baroness will be prepared to withdraw her Amendment.
Lord BEAUMONT of WHITLEY: I am afraid that the noble Lord does not convince me at all. He said that the case
which my noble friend Lady Seear cited as a possible example would be dealt with very quickly and that the Government expect the great majority of complaints to be dealt with very quickly. It is all very fine to expect and hope, but the experience of a great many of us in dealing with Government Departments at one time or another is that maximum periods of this kind also become the minimum time. Since there will be no great hurry to produce anything before the deadline of four months, particularly if there are busy and overworked civil servants, this is what may happen.
For this reason, I should still like to see the period of four months reduced to two, because it does not seem to me that the awful consequences which the noble Lord cited to us of what would happen if we passed this Amendment would be so awful. If it were not resolved in two months the complainants could go to the court. In most cases, of course, if the Department explained the complexity of the situation they would not, and if they did in a very few cases, then the duplication of effort, work and expense—which I admit would happen in a few cases—does not seem to me to weigh very heavily against all the arguments that have been put forward in favour of

1381
bringing down this period to two months.
Baroness SEEAR: Like my noble friend Lord Beaumont of Whitley, I am not persuaded that this work could not effectively be got through in the great majority of cases in two months. As the noble Lord, Lord Crowther-Hunt, said, the simple cases can be handled very quickly, thus it will be only a small residue of cases which will go further. If those cases do from time to time have to appear in the courts as a result of delay,
Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment agreed to accordingly.
4.48 p.m.
On Question, Whether Clause 63, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS: This is the point of which I gave notice
then I do not believe that this will necessarily be a bad thing, because it will be a redress to the Departmental nature of the handling of the cases. I am not prepared, therefore, to withdraw the Amendment.
4.38 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment (No. 55) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 85; Not-Contents, 43.

CONTENTS

Airedale, L.

Effingham, E.

Northchurch, B.

Amherst of Hackney, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Amulree, L.

Emmet of Amberley, B.

O'Neill of the Maine, L.

Arran, E.

Erskine of Rerrick, L.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Ashbourne, L.

Falkland, V.

Platt, L.

Balerno, L.

Geoffrey-Lloyd, L.

Porritt, L.

Balfour, E.

Gladwyn, L.

Rankeillour, L.

Balfour of Inchrye, L.

Goschen, V.

Reigate, L.

Barnby, L.

Grenfell, L.

Renwick, L.

Beaumont of Whitley, L. [Teller.]

Grimston of Westbury, L.

Roberthall, L.

Hanworth, V.

Robson of Kiddington, B.

Berkeley, B.

Harvington, L.

Rochester, L.

Bessborough, E.

Hawke, L.

Sackville, L.

Brentford, V.

Henley, L.

St. Davids, V.

Brooke of Cumnor, L.

Hornsby-Smith, B.

Sandys, L.

Brooke of Ystradfellte, B.

Jessel, L.

Seear, B.

Byers, L.

Killearn, L.

Selkirk, E.

Campbell of Croy, L.

Lauderdale, E.

Sempill, Ly.

Cathcart, E.

Lindsey and Abingdon, E.

Somers, L.

Chorley, L.

Long, V.

Stamp, L.

Clitheroe, L.

Loudoun, C.

Teviot, L.

Colwyn, L.

Lyell, L.

Thurlow, L.

Cromartie, E.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Thurso, V.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Meston, L.

Trefgarne, L.

Daventry, V.

Montagu of Beaulieu, L.

Vickers, B. [Teller.]

de Freyne, L.

Mountgarret, V.

Vivian, L.

Derwent, L.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Ward of North Tyneside, B.

Drumalbyn, L.

Nelson of Stafford, L.

Windlesham, L.

Dundonald, E.

Newall, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Alport, L.

Greenwood of Rossendale, L.

Phillips, B.

Beswick, L.

Harris of Greenwich, L.

Royle, L.

Brockway, L.

Henderson, L.

Segal, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Shackleton, L.

Collison, L.

Hughes, L.

Shepherd, L. (L. Privy Seal)

Crowther-Hunt, L.

Jacques, L. [Teller.]

Stedman, B.

Darling of Hillsborough, L.

Janner, L.

Summerskill, B.

Delacourt-Smith of Alteryn, B.

Leatherland, L.

Wallace of Coslany, L.

Douglas of Barloch, L.

Lloyd of Hampstead, L.

Wells-Pestell, L.

Elwyn-Jones, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Lyons of Brighton, L.

White, B.

Fisher of Rednal, B.

Maybray-King, L.

Willis, L.

Gaitskell, B.

Melchett, L. [Teller.]

Wilson of Radcliffe, L.

Garner, L.

Pannell, L.

Winterbottom, L.

Gordon-Walker, L.

Peddie, L.

Wootton of Abinger, B.

Goronwy-Roberts, L.

a few minutes ago. The Committee will see that in cases which go to the Industial Tribunal for enforcement under Part II of the Bill, those concerned will be fortunate in having, under Clause 61, the help of the conciliation officers of the Department of Employment. As I understand the process intended under this

1383
clause, they will be able to take an active part in trying to iron out the difficulties, remove the discriminatory prejudices and in fact do everything possible to settle the matter without anybody having to indulge in litigation at all. If that is what they are doing, I am all in favour of their doing it. However it raises the question of who is going to do the equivalent job in a case of enforcement under Part III which does not go to the Industrial Tribunal but to the courts, both in England and in Scotland. The conciliation services of the Department of Employment are not apt to deal with these.
I am a little afraid of there being a problem here because although my profession, the legal profession, is, I am sure, only too happy to have most fervent arguments with those who are alleged to be discriminating against our clients, we unfortunately have to spend a certain amount of time and trouble doing it; and we charge for it. I think that we are entitled to do so because we take a certain amount of time and trouble doing it. If in a case of this sort one of my profession is engaged under legal aid by a person against whom discrimination has been practised, does the legal aid scheme—I simply do not know; I ask out of ignorance—involve payment for the active participation in negotiations with the alleged discriminator, going to see the person who has offended under some of these provisions in Part III: has not given equivalent services, for hire purposes, or any other goods and services or entertainment, or whatever it may be? One looks at Clause 29 to see what sort of things may happen. We are involved also in the provision of premises, in lettings, in transfer of leases.
Does the legal aid service include this sort of active role for a solicitor or, occasionally, for counsel, both North and South of the Border? If not, we are leaving a gap in the Bill which will result in unnecessary litigation simply for the default in providing for somebody there to conciliate in the first place before the matter gets into the court. I believe that there is something to be said for doing it without litigation if we can, and I would ask the noble Lord whether the machinery is geared to enable this sort of thing to happen.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: The noble Viscount said that he did not want to bowl any Thompson or Lillie-style bowling at me, but I fear that the effect of his generosity is that I am still unable to answer the question of which he gave me notice. I shall have to look at this. As I understand the situation—and I have tried to clarify it since the noble Viscount raised the point—we have not made any special arrangements in this type of case in the county court so far as legal aid certificates are concerned, but I am not at the moment able to give him the unequivocal answer to which he is entitled, and he will receive such an answer.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS: I am obliged.
Clause 63 as amended, agreed to.
Clause 64 agreed to.
Clause 65 [Appeal against non-discrimination notice]:
4.52 p.m.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS move Amendment No. 57:
Page 40, line 3, at end insert (" but a person upon whom any such requirement is imposed under subsection (3) may appeal to the Court of Appeal, or in Scotland the Court of Session, on any question of law. ").
The noble Viscount said: On behalf of my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn and somewhat unpreparedly, I should like to move the Amendment because I feel that it is something about which we need an answer. The provisions of Clause 65 enable a person against whom a non-discrimination notice has been served to appeal. The court—either the county court or the sheriff court—can look at it and substitute a new requirement in place of the original requirement of the non-discrimination notice under Clause 64. I suppose the court does this at the end of the hearing on its own Motion or upon the suggestion of the parties, either singly or jointly, in place of what was originally appealed against. There is, normally speaking, an appeal from the decision of a judge in the county court—and I think the same applies in Scotland—on a point of law, but not on a point of fact. Certainly, I believe that, where one has rather peculiar jurisdiction such as is provided for in Clause 65(3), where the court is really making a direction, the

1385
ordinary appeals provisions in the County Courts Act and the Scottish equivalent probably do not apply at all.
Can the noble Lord tell us what is the situation? If we reach the end of a hearing about a non-discrimination notice and the county court judge or the deputy sheriff decides to make a new requirement which no one has ever heard of before, is there or is there not any further provision for appeal? It appears to me that it is probable that it ought not to be left completely unappealable, either on a point of law or on a point of fact. It may be that we shall have to be content with a point of law, in which case one will probably be able to construct it on the grounds that the person had no reasonable basis for coming to that conclusion, or something of that nature, but I think I am right in saying that, unless we provide explicitly for an appeal on this particular type of jurisdiction, the general law almost certainly does not cover it. I may be entirely wrong, but I should be very grateful for the guidance of the noble Lord, Lord Harris, on this point. I beg to move.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: I believe that I should be able to persuade the noble Viscount that the Amendment is unnecessary. Section 108 of the County Court Act 1959 provides a right of appeal on a question of law to the Court of Appeal and, in Scotland, by virtue of Sections 27 and 28 of the Sheriff Court (Scotland) Act 1907 there is a corresponding avenue of appeal to the Sheriff Principal and the Court of Session. Under the industrial tribunal procedure, there is a right of appeal to the High Court on a point of law. It is true that Section 65(4) prevents the recipient of a non-discrimination notice which has been amended by a court or tribunal in appeal proceedings by the insertion of a substitute requirement from appealing again to a court or a tribunal in respect of that substitute requirement. However, the recipient can still appeal on a point of law in the way I have outlined. Although we have looked at this point since the Amendment was tabled, we do not see that there is any need to spell this out in relation to Clause 65. I believe that the point which the noble Viscount has made is met.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS: I am very grateful to the noble Lord, as
1386
I am sure my noble friend will be also. The only gap in this is that one can have a situation—and I am trying to envisage what might happen—in which one had an original requirement which came before the court and which was argued about. Submissions would be made, evidence would be called and the whole procedure would be gone through and, at the end of the day, the sheriff or the county court might misinterpret the situation and produce a substitute requirement which would then be binding on both parties and about which nobody could do anything. The requirement would be in substitution for the original one which was indeed appealable, but the sheriff or the judge would come out and produce, ex cathedra, an entirely new requirement over which nothing could be done unless there were a mistake in law. I should think that, in 99 cases out of 100, if not more frequently, there will not be a mistake in law. Therefore, one will have a situation which will be unappealable.
It may be that this is the inevitable result of doing it in this way and that there is nothing which can be done about it, but I can imagine cases where, from a misunderstanding, a mistake or, just occasionally, out of unreasonableness—because one must recognise the possibility that this can occur—there will be an unsatisfactory conclusion. I was grateful to hear about the appeal on the point of law. I believe that my noble friend would like to look at this in view of the Minister's response, so, for the present, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 65 agreed to.
Clauses 66 and 67 agreed to.
4.58 p.m.
Clause 68 [Persistent discrimination]:
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: Amendment No. 58 puts right a printing error. I beg to move.
Amendment moved
Page 41, line 1, leave out ("72") and insert ("63").—(Lord Harris of Greenwich.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Baroness VICKERS Baroness VICKERS moved Amendment No. 59:
Page 41, line 12, at end insert—
("( ) Persons or organisations against whom such an order or injunction is granted shall

1387
not be eligible for grants of any kind from public funds or for tendering for any contracts paid out of such funds, notwithstanding any other enactments prior to this Act, for a period to be decided by the county court or sheriff court.").
The noble Baroness said: I feel that the Sex Discrimination Bill has been subject to some criticism, both inside and outside the House, because of many points of detail which are lacking. On Second Reading, I criticised it as having many loopholes. Women form nearly 40 per cent. of the work force of this country and one in five women can expect to be the family's breadwinner, but the average woman can expect to earn only half the average man's wage. The Equal Pay Act will not, I regret to say, put this right until women are more fairly spread throughout all types and levels of job. Few girls stay at school after 16 and not much more than a quarter of our university students are women. The number of women in professions is derisory. Forty-four out of
over 3,000 university professors, and only 21 per cent. of doctors are women. Only 4 per cent. of architects and 3 per cent. of solicitors are women.
This Bill, as I understand it, is supposed to put right discrimination against women, but it does not even try to deal with this enormous disparity in jobs held by each sex. Yet I suppose that almost the sole purpose of the Bill is to ensure that if a woman wants a job, or a place in an educational institution, or access to goods or services, her application will be, quite rightly, dealt with on the same terms as those of a man. Even within these limited aims, the penalties provided for offenders are hardly adequate deterrents: a £400 fine for failure to comply with a notice ordering fair treatment for women; maximum damages of £5,200 or only 104 weeks' pay for proven, intentional and deliberate discrimination against an individual woman. I agree that no penalty can compensate for the seriousness of the offence of those who persist deliberately in treating women unjustly, even after a court or industrial tribunal judgment, but I consider that this should be put right.
It is unfortunate that money, in the form of rates and taxes, should be taken from women and used to support or employ organisations which then dis-
1388
criminate against them—discriminate not just occasionally, or accidentally, or by default, but in a determined and systematic way that leads them to disobey a court, industrial tribunal or the Equal Opportunity Commission's Order. I mention the limited aims of the Bill, because I should like to contrast what is offered to the women of this country with what is provided for the women of the United States. In that country, the Federal authorities have been more ambitious.
Their aim is not just to make sure that individual women get a fair chance of any job, education, or facility available, but that the proportions of women at every level of the work force should steadily increase. I suggest that this is what we want to see happen in this country. To be eligible for Federal contracts, or sub-contracts, a firm in the United States must show not just that it does not want to discriminate against women in its recruitment or promotions policies, but that it is taking active steps—they call it "affirmative action "—to put right the existing under-representation of women.
The Runnymede Trust has recently urged that in this country firms tendering for Government contracts worth more than £100,000 should be obliged to show that they are working towards equal job opportunities for men and women and ethnic minorities. Existing non-discrimination clauses in Government contracts should be extended to include women, and should be rigorously enforced. This Amendment seeks a more limited sanction, but I suggest that it would encourage employers and others to take active steps so that they do not run any risk of incurring that sanction. I desire to end a system—this is the important part of my Amendment—that gives grants or contracts paid from public funds equally to those who treat women fairly and to those who have been convicted of persistent, wilful and prolonged refusal to do so.
What I am suggesting falls a long way short of the American approach of positive action, but does not go as far as the Runnymede Trust urges. It seeks to make sure only that the country need not continue to support organisations that persistently break the law. By encouraging employers and others in this

1389
way to take active care that they do not risk being convicted of persistent discrimination, I believe we should be offering more impetus towards positive discrimination in favour of women, with a small but worth while enlargement of the limited ambitions of this Bill. It is for that reason that I beg to move.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: I am bound to say at the outset that the Government are unable to accept this Amendment. As the noble Baroness pointed out, she is endeavouring to deal with the persistent offender. The question is not whether the persistent offender should be dealt with harshly, but rather—under her Amendment—whether this is the appropriate or just way of dealing with him; and I think that it is not. In her Amendment, the noble Baroness is asking for a mandatory disqualification from tendering for public contracts of central and local government, and the period of such disqualification would be determined by the county court judge in England and Wales and by the sheriff in Scotland. The objections to this are as follows.
First, it involves a double penalty, but only for certain types of persistent offender; namely, the one who has an interest in public contracts. He is to be dealt with differently from the person who might be a persistent offender of a far more objectionable character, but who is not involved in tendering for public contracts of any sort. That seems to me to be a fairly formidable argument in itself. But the Amendment deals only with the new contract, not with the existing contract. I realise the reason for that, and if the noble Baroness had made such a proposition I suspect that I should be arguing even more strongly against that point. Nevertheless, it is right that it should be recognised that the Amendment would not deal with a long term contract of whatever duration, but only with a new one.
The third objection—and I think this is a point of substance—is that it takes no account of other objectives of either central or local government. I wish to give some examples of what could be involved in a matter of this sort. Let us take a case involving an important new defence contract, where one of the sub-contractors is one of these persistent offenders. However—and this is where
1390
I suspect that the parallel with the United States is not a particularly strong one—he may well be involved in supplying a part for, let us say, an armoured fighting vehicle, or a radar installation, and he may be the only person capable of supplying that part. Is one to put oneself in the position of having to say that it is very unfortunate, but in that case we will not be able to have the new type of armoured fighting vehicle or whatever it may be? With respect, I do not think that the noble Baroness can totally put on one side other important objectives of Government policy.
There may, for instance, be a situation affecting a local authority where, in a widely scattered rural area, there is only one possible potential supplier, but that supplier would be debarred if he were a persistent offender. I am not in any way seeking to say that these people should be treated other than severely if they fall foul of this clause. But I say to the noble Baroness that the penalty for ignoring an injunction of a court, set out in this clause of the Bill, is very severe in itself. It can lead to a term of imprisonment or a severe financial penalty. I point out to the noble Baroness that there is nothing between the Government and herself on the question of how severely these people should be treated. But though we respect the motives which underlie this Amendment, we do not believe that this is a right way of dealing with the situation.
Baroness VICKERS: Following the noble Lord's reply, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 68, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 69 agreed to.
Clause 70 agreed to.
5.10 p.m.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS moved Amendment No. 60:
After Clause 70, insert the following new clause:
Transfer of proceedings
".—(1) Where—

(a) a complaint is made under section 60; or

(b) a claim is made under section 63; or

(c) an appeal is brought under section 65,

and it appears to the industrial tribunal, the county court or the sheriff court (in this section referred to as "the court"), as the case may be. that the matter falls within the jurisdiction of another of the courts, the court may, on the application of any party to the proceedings or of its own motion order that the whole proceeding be transferred to the appropriate court.
(2) Where an order is made under subsection (1) of this section, the record in the proceeding shall be transferred to the appropriate court, and the proceeding shall thenceforth be continued in that court as if it had been originally commenced therein.
(3) Rules or regulations, as defined in section 71(5), shall be made for the purposes of and incidental to the provisions of this section."
The noble Viscount said: This is an attempt to be helpful, and I hope that it is not entirely misguided. A little later, there is another of the Amendments which deal with the period of what I might describe as limitation. As it is in the names of both the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, and my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn, it looks as if it is likely to be included in the Bill. It extends from only three months to six months the period within which one can initiate proceedings. I am entirely in favour of there being a fairly short period during which proceedings are to be initiated, whether it be under Part II of the Bill for employment matters or under Part III for the other sphere that the Bill deals with, because only if you instigate proceedings quickly will you get people who can remember what actually happened and can give reliable evidence; otherwise, the whole thing becomes confused and hazy in people's recollection.
What worries me—and I raised this point on Second Reading—is that we have a considerably complicated series of situations where people may feel that they have been discriminated against. Some of them are plainly within the realm of employment and probably will cause no difficulty; some of them are quite plainly within the realm of something other than employment and equally will cause no very great difficulty. What will happen, for instance, under something to do with vocational training? I produce this as an example only because it is fairly apparent on the face of the Bill that this could occur; in practice there will be numbers of other borderline cases, but at the moment I cannot think of the details. At present, Clause 14 deals with vocational training bodies and provides for
1392
something which I would broadly describe as being educational. There are also provisions in Part III which deal with education and training. The other day the noble Baroness, Lady Fisher of Rednal, referred to polytechnics and
retraining. That is a matter which comes within Part III of the Bill.
Take an ordinary, simple person who was not very good at the law and obtained this Bill from a library to see how he should go about making a complaint. He perhaps thought the matter had something to do with vocational training and therefore referred the complaint to the industrial tribunal. He did not get the Bill from the library until four months had elapsed, and when the matter was to be heard it was seven months after the difficulty occurred. Suppose the industrial tribunal said that it was something which came not under Part II of the Bill but under Part III, and that the matter should have gone to the county court or the sheriff court. The person concerned would then be out of time and nothing could be done about the matter. There is no power in the Bill to extend the time, and therefore the person would be deprived of his remedy.
In the ordinary courts of this land, although you do not get separate jurisdictions of this kind, there is a simple machinery whereby you can transfer from the High Court to the county court, or vice versa, a case which was started by mistake in the wrong court. It would be immensely helpful for people who either could not afford a great deal of advice, were wrongly advised, genuinely muddled or, in some other way, were in a position where they made a mistake and were out of time, to have the protection of some machinery such as I have provided in order to correct it in front of the right tribunal. The court to which they originally went, upon discovery of the situation, could transfer the case to the right court.
I do not know whether this is something which makes sense. It occurs to me as a practical way of getting out of some of the difficulties which can arise from the complications and scope of this Bill. We on our side would have had a simpler Bill and cases would have gone only before the industrial tribunals. Let us accept the fact that the Government have decided on a wider scope, but

1393
let us see whether we can assist those who may try to take advantage of its provisions and not be put off by a technicality. I hope that the noble Lord will either accept this or will tell me how else you can do it. I am after practical solutions to problems, and if this is the wrong way to do it I will happily consider any other one.
Baroness FISHER of REDNAL: I have listened with great interest to the noble Viscount. He talks about the simple woman going to the library and getting out this document to read. After she has read the first page she will probably put it back on the shelf again! As noble Lords have said, it is a very difficult Bill to understand even for those of us experienced in reading Bills. So that the good lady, whether simple or intelligent, does not get into the difficulty about which the noble Viscount has spoken, is there any possibility of getting an Easy Guide to the Sex Discrimination Bill so that all the women to whom it is supposed to apply will understand it and be able to take all these legal precautions?
Baroness GAITSKELL: I should like to support my noble friend 100 per cent. on this. If I ask for the Intelligent Woman's Guide to the Sex Discrimination Bill I shall be contravening the Bill itself! I am all in favour of this Bill, but I do not understand a word of it. It is a step in the right direction, and I am sure that there are some very good things about it. But as for understanding the drafting, I do not know how anybody can understand it at all—man, woman or child. I hope that the Government will let us have some guidelines or a simplified version of this Bill. I think it is very important we should have that; and perhaps they could let us have it first of all in this House.
Baroness PHILLIPS: If the Government are thinking of issuing simple guides or explanations of Bills, a number of your Lordships would wish to submit a long list including the new Social Security Bill.
5.18 p.m.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: I think the problem raised by my noble friend Lady Gaitskell can be dealt with by calling the guide the Intelligent Person's Guide to the Sex Discrimination
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Bill. This Bill deals with underprivileged men as well as under-privileged women—a most important matter. I hope with the noble Baroness, Lady Fisher of Rednal, we shall get a guide to Bill. As I indicated in the debate on an earlier Amendment, there is a major communications problem here and the Government, the chairman and the deputy chairman of the Commission, are well aware of it. To a large extent this Bill will, certainly in the initial year or two of its life, stand or fall by the success achieved in communicating the provisions of the Bill. Obviously this is going to be one of the Commission's most urgent tasks when they begin to work.
In dealing with the point made by the noble Viscount, I suggest we also discuss Amendment No. 67 which deals partly with the same point, as this will help us in the area identified by the noble Viscount during his Second Reading speech. As a result of what he said, I have been discussing this matter with officials in my Department. I should not like to form a judgment at this moment about the precise points he makes; nevertheless, as a result of the noble Viscount's Amendment, we have had our own Second Reading debate within the Home Office. I hope that within the Home Office we shall soon be moving ahead to our Committee stage and Report stage, so that by the time we come to the Report stage in your Lordships' House we shall have something to offer.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS: I am grateful to the noble Lord. It is true that Amendment No. 67 goes some way towards the solution of this problem. If I may now address myself to his internal Report stage, what it does not deal with is the actual initiation of the process. There are court fees involved. You have to redraft your proceedings in front of the new tribunal. No doubt you have incurred fees in the inappropriate court and you will never get those back. There are costs if the case has got as far as a defence or some answer. You will not get those costs back, either. I have no particular brief for what I put down but, despite the fact that you have two slightly different types of organisation in an industrial tribunal and court between which the transfer is suggested, a simple transfer may be the easiest,

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cheapest and most simple solution. I would much rather leave this for the discussions which I am glad to hear are going on, and I look forward very much to there being a satisfactory result. It is essential that we should do something about it.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: I do not want to commit myself, but I regard this as an important matter.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS: I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 71 [Help for aggrieved persons in obtaining information etc.]:
5.20 p.m.
Baroness SEEAR Baroness SEEAR moved Amendment No. 61:
Page 42, line 40, at end insert—
("( ) In employment cases the person discriminated against in contravention of this Act shall consult the Conciliation Officer of the Advisory Conciliation and Arbitration Service before action is taken under subsection (1) of this section. ")
The noble Baroness said: This is to some extent also a probing Amendment and is concerned with a procedural matter, though it impinges upon the way in which this Bill will be administered. Its purpose is to ensure—if this is the right way of doing so—that in a matter such as this, where there can be a great deal of misunderstanding and human confusion, it is very important that before the legalistic procedures are embarked upon the more informal processes of conciliation should be fully pursued. The way in which Clause 71 is drafted, with its references in sub-paragraphs (a) and (b) to the filling-in of forms suggests to me, and also to at least one very experienced company lawyer, that there is a real danger that these cases will get into the hands of the lawyers and will be handled in a very legalistic way. In certain circumstances and at the end of the day that is right and proper, but it is my contention, and certainly the contention of this very experienced industrial lawyer that it is essential in employment cases that the conciliation officers should first handle them in the most informal way possible before the lawyers are brought in. It may be that this Amendment is not
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the right way of doing this, or that this aspect is covered in some other part of the Bill. But I move this Amendment to try to ensure that the conciliation officers are brought in as soon as possible before the lawyers are brought in, to deal with private cases. I beg to move.
Lord JACQUES: In the hope that I might save time, I will not state the case against the Amendment at this stage, but would merely point out that Clause 61 (2) permits a concilation officer to be brought in before a formal complaint is made. Thus, whenever an individual feels that the services of a conciliation officer would be helpful, even where that individual does not want to make a formal complaint, the Bill already makes the appropriate provision.
Baroness SEEAR: The noble Lord has just said that the Bill permits the conciliation officer to be brought in. The point of my Amendment is to ensure that the conciliation officer has contact with these cases in the early stages. In other words, this is a procedural matter which will ensure that the conciliation officer automatically looks at a case before it goes to the lawyers. That is different from permitting a case to go to the conciliation officer.
Lord JACQUES: There is a formidable case against this Amendment, and in the circumstances I must state it. First, the drafting of the Amendment is extremely had and no Amendment could be accepted in this form. For example, it assumes that the person is guilty of discrimination even before being charged. However, the purpose of the Amendment is clear and I will deal with it on that basis. Clause 71 is intended to help an aggrieved person to obtain information which will assist him or her to
decide whether or not to make a complaint and, if it is so decided, to prepare a case. Let me take, for example, the case of a woman who has applied for a job, has perhaps been for an interview and has subsequently received a letter stating that she has not got the job. She may have little information about the reason for this, but may have some grounds for suspecting that it is because she is a woman. Clause 71 makes provision for forms to be prescribed, by means of which a woman may question an employer as to his reasons for turning her down. The

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Amendment would have the effect of requiring every individual—this would be mandatory—who considers that he or she may have been discriminated against under the employment provisions of the Bill and wishes to use one of these Clause 71 forms, to consult a conciliation officer before sending off the form.
I am afraid we do not think this would be a good idea, for several reasons. First, it would be inappropriate for a conciliation officer to have this kind of task. I am not sure whether the noble Baroness intends that the conciliation officer would simply help the individual to put the questions in the correct manner, or whether he would be expected to contact the other party to get the other side of the story. If it were only the former, then this would be a somewhat wasteful use of the skills of a conciliation officer. Moreover, I doubt whether many people would have difficulty in completing these forms, either by themselves or with the help of colleagues such as trade union representatives. Our hope in devising the form would be to direct attention to the kinds of questions which it would be most useful and relevant for an aggrieved person to ask. If it is the latter point which the noble Baroness has in mind, this, again, would be wasteful because this may be too early a stage at which to bring in the conciliation process. All an individual wants is to discover the reasons for a certain act, and it may be that once this information is available the grievances will disappear. At that point it is much too early to bring in the conciliation officer.
The second objection to the Amendment is that the very essence of a conciliation officer's task is that he always proceeds with the agreement of the two parties concerned. Thus, under Clause 61 of the Bill, nobody is forced to use the services of a conciliation officer: this is entirely for the two parties themselves to decide. But this Amendment would require an individual to consult the conciliation officer before using a Clause 71 form. I do not think this would fit at all happily into the work of a conciliation officer.
Finally, I do not favour this Amendment, because it would place a very heavy burden on a service which is already going to be over-burdened. These
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officers are already responsible for conciliation in cases of unfair dismissal. The scope of these cases has considerably widened since the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act 1974. They will also have the duty of conciliating in cases under this Bill, under the Equal Pay Act and under the Employment Protection Bill. The Advisory Conciliation and Arbitration Service will thus be very heavily committed in meeting their statutory duties. As I have already indicated, I do not think it would be appropriate for these conciliation officers to be engaged on work consequential to this Amendment. We feel that Clause 61(2), which gives the individual who feels aggrieved the right to call in a conciliation officer if she wishes, is the better way of dealing with this situation.
BARONESS SEEAR: I have no particular pride in the drafting of this Amendment, but if it is not satisfactory it could well be altered. I take the point of the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, regarding cases of selection. Where a person has applied for a job and is not already employed in the firm, perhaps it is much more difficult to bring in conciliation officers. I can see that. I am not greatly convinced by his argument about the volume of work involved. If the Government pass a great deal of legislation which to be properly handled requires a great increase in conciliation work, then it is up to the Government to ensure that there are enough conciliation officers to deal with it. I do not believe that that factor in itself is an argument either way. It is quite possible for the Government to have sufficient conciliation officers to meet the burden of work which their legislation brings about. That, surely, is a consequence of all legislation—the provision of staff to deal with it.
However, I do think that where a woman is already employed in a firm—and these are going to be the most difficult cases of all—and believes that training or promotion opportunities have been denied her, it is difficult to bring a case and it is highly desirable that the conciliation officers should work on the situation before legal proceedings are started. I know that the noble Lord will say, "The woman has an opportunity to do this." This is true. I know that he will say that both sides have to agree to the process of

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conciliation. Of course that is so; I am fully aware of this. Only one party needs to go to the conciliation officer. Of course it will take two parties to get anywhere with it, but this is the normal daily work of the conciliation officer. Someone goes to him and he attempts to take the matter up with the other side. There is nothing different in this from any other part of the conciliation officer's work.
Although I do not intend to press this Amendment, because the drafting could be improved, I strongly believe that every possible effort should be made to ensure that conciliation officers automatically come into all the internal cases—the training and promotion cases—which are going to be very sensitive indeed and which, in my view, are quite inappropriate for the more legalistic procedures. I do not believe we shall get anywhere with legalistic procedures; I believe we may go quite a long way with conciliation, and this should be the normal drill.
Baroness GAITSKELL: Before the Minister replies, I should like to support him greatly in what he said about the burden of work for conciliation officers. I have considerable nerve in attempting to disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, but this Bill is not going simply to swim easily into the whole of our legislation on this subject. There will be many very difficult cases and there will be a great burden—I think a terrifying burden—on conciliation officers. So I am afraid I would disagree with the noble Baroness on that point.
Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBY: I support my noble friend the Minister in his observations on this Amendment. We have to leave something to the imagination and something to common sense. It would be a pity if we tried to spell out everything to the last dot and comma. My noble friend was describing a situation where a woman applied for a job and received just a simple, possibly curt, letter saying that her application was unsuccessful. She may have had grounds to believe she had been discriminated against. She may have instituted inquiries in support of her suspicion. If she felt she had a case, then under Clause 70(1)—I underline this fact—she has to decide whether to institute proceedings. This is what this
1400
clause is about—whether to institute proceedings.
In the case that my noble friend mentioned, the woman concerned would possibly have no union to look after her interests because she was not already employed in the organisation. The conciliation officer clearly does not come into it because there is no semblance of an industrial dispute or differences between the union and the management or between worker and worker. It is a simple case of application for entry into employment. Where, however, a woman is in employment and feels that she has been unfairly treated in a matter of selection for a position of responsibility—and this problem usually arises over promotion or employment on duties which may carry status or improved pay, where the employer says the job is not suitable for a woman—surely the first thing to happen is that the union or unions concerned would try to sort the matter out.
The conciliation officer must not be misused. He is to deal with matters which may give rise to industrial discord or industrial disputes. I am against trotting in the conciliation officer at the drop of a hat. From my experience he is in the initial stage the last person we want to see. We can settle many of these difficulties ourselves, and this is what we want to do. This legislation is, after all. a tremendous exercise and adventure in the field of human relations. As to bringing in the law, goodness me! have we not heard all these words before in connection with the Industrial Relations Act 1971? When the law is brought into human relations and industrial relations unnecessarily or in a provocative way, there is likely to be more trouble than if one did nothing at all. We must be careful not to do in this Bill the kind of thing we objected to in the Industrial Relations Act 1971. In these circumstances we should leave well alone. Let us see how some things work out and not try to overdo it.
I conclude by saying that the material words in this clause
which it is sought to amend relate to instituting proceedings. One would hope that in most cases there would be a great deal to do before one contemplated taking proceedings. I believe that the number of proceedings that will be taken under this Bill when it becomes an Act of Parliament will be

1401
minimal. In most fields of employment the unions and management together in the new atmosphere created will accommodate different points of view on the position of women and the opportunities to be given to them. Elsewhere, I think again that the climate of opinion which this Bill will create will surely put selectors on their guard against actions which might be misinterpreted as discrimination, when perhaps all they were doing was considering qualifications without any sex bias at all. So I myself would be quite content to see this Amendment withdrawn without any reservations whatever.
Baroness SEEAR: With all respect, I do not think the noble Lord heard what I said. A good deal of what he said was on my side. I am exceedingly anxious to keep legal proceedings out. I think I have already said that three times in this discourse. I am not going to say it any more and I am going on to beg leave to withdraw the Amendment. I would only add that if the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, seriously believes that in all cases up and down the country trade union representation at factory floor level will be the woman's best friend, I think he is not as closely connected with this aspect of the trade union movement as are some of us. With the leave of the Committee, I beg leave to withdraw this Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.39 p.m.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS moved Amendment No. 62:
Page 42, leave out lines 42 and 43.
The noble Viscount said: If I may say so, with the lightest possible touches to the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, unfortunately we are still, from time to time, going to have the law involved in some of these matters. That is really what Clause 71 is about. I want to be convinced by the noble Lord who is to answer—I do not know who will do so—that we are not doing something here which is either unnecessary or possibly a little misguided. I first want to make quite plain that I do not in any way wish to object to legal innovations. I said so on Second Reading and I say so again. If we can think of some useful, workable short cuts whereby points can be put into evidence before the courts in a
1402
sensible way, for goodness' sake let us have them!
But that is not the point I am taking. What I should like to do—and this applies also to Amendment No. 63 because both Amendments are on the same point—is to find out what the provision in this clause does. First of all, we are to have a method whereby a person who thinks that he or she is being discriminated against can interrogate the other party. That seems to me to be very sensible. The clause tells us that the rules of court will set out how you do it and, indeed, how you answer it, or the form in which you answer it. So far, that seems to be eminently sensible because there will be a recognised set of forms which everybody knows apply to the Sex Discrimination Act. People will get a form, they will know what it is all about and they will know that if they look it up they will find the form in which to answer it. So far so good. However, the Amendment
which I have moved deals with the exception to this particular rule. The Bill says that you can have rules and regulations to set out the form in which you ask the question and the form in which you answer it, but you need not pay any attention to the way in which it is set out in the rules of court either in asking the question or in answering it; any old question will do and so will any old answer.
In those circumstances, will the noble Lord tell me, first of all, what is the point of having rules, because if anything will do, why have rules at all? Secondly, will he tell me this. If, as I suspect, it is a good idea to have rules, why do we provide that people should be allowed wholly to disregard them? I am not saying that one cannot have a rule—this is very common in legal parlance—which says that a question should be in this form or to that effect so that one sticks roughly to the same formula. How- ever, I am concerned—and I have said it several times and so have other noble Lords—that one should not bring this legislation into disrepute. If anything will do—any question, however obscure, however oblique, however unconnected with whatever it is that may appear to be the point—and will count as a question which is being asked under Clause 71, may be given in evidence without any I further ado under this clause and if you

1403
have not answered an adverse inference is drawn from your failure to answer it in connection with an alleged sexual discrimination, then I think we are a very long way from simplifying matters. On the contrary, we shall make people suspicious.
If somebody writes a letter to me and I think there may be some possible implication in it which concerns sexual discrimination, how am I to know whether or not this will be a question which falls under Clause 71? Shall I have to suspect every communication as being possibly a trap which will be used against me in legal proceedings? If so, nobody will give sensible answers to anything and this will not facilitate the ironing out of disputes. It will make people suspicious, it will make people legalistic and it will make them fearful that whatever it is that they have said will be taken down and used in evidence against them, even though they have had no warning that it is a question under Clause 71. For all the belief that I have in making matters easy for people, I strongly suspect that it will be counter-productive.
Therefore, the third question that I wish to ask the noble Lord is this. If we are going to have rules and regulations which set out the forms of these questions and answers, and if we shall be able to disregard them wholesale and not pay attention, even remotely, to the form in which the rules set out the matter, and we then come to a matter which is dealt with under subsection (2)(b), what will be the result? I have taken an extreme case because when one is dealing with evidence I suggest to the Committee that it is sensible to do so. The rules of evidence have been built up by trial and error over an immensely long period in the courts of this country. They may look silly and complicated to the layman but they are an attempt to be fair, to avoid people being caught out, to avoid words being put into people's mouths which they never said without giving them an opportunity to deny it—and so on.
In Clause 71(2)(b) there is an opportunity for the court to draw an adverse inference from an answer, or a failure to answer. I should not mind this in the very least if this were going to be done according to the rules of court which
1404
have been prescribed. That would be perfectly fair. If somebody receives something which says that it is a question set out by Statute in accordance with the rules of court and he does not answer it, or he answers it in an evasive and tiresome way, you can draw the necessary adverse inference from that fact. But if he does not even know that it is a question under Clause 71 and he has not the faintest idea what the object of it is, why is it right that adverse inferences should be drawn as the Statute now provides that they should be?
It comes to this. If you are going to have rules, I would suggest to the Committee—it is simply a practical suggestion and it may be quite wrong—that you can use all the powers that are set out in this clause in the case of questions and answers that apply with them or come within the general form of the rules. If you wish to rely upon something else—a question and an answer which bear no resemblance whatever to the way in which the rules set out that it should be done—you are still entitled to bring this in evidence. I believe that the ordinary rules of evidence would allow you to do so. You can get out the question and the answer in the course of the pleadings, or in discovery, or at a suitable stage of the proceedings, or you can do it in evidence itself. But why provide specifically for there to be an adverse inference which can be drawn from these facts when the person may not have realised what it was all about in the first place?
To summarise, if we can disregard them, why have rules? If we are going to have rules, what is it in the question and the answer that cannot be dealt with by way of the ordinary rules of evidence, anyway? What do we add by the provisions of this clause? Thirdly, is it right that people should be in danger of being able to be caught out and of having an unsuspecting answer used adversely against them in proceedings when they did not understand in any way what was being asked of them in the first place? They may even not be there. The evidence can be drawn in court and any inference drawn. Therefore, a little explanation should be given about this. I am not being hostile but I am being intensely inquisitive. I have looked at the

1405
report of the debate in Standing Committee in another place. I do not think that the full philosophy underlying this clause in the way it has been drafted has been spelled out and I believe that the Committee of this House is entitled to know a little more about the Government's thoughts on the subject. I beg to move.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: As the noble Viscount pointed out a moment or two ago, he dealt with this matter during the Second Reading debate. Since then, as on the previous point, I have been involved in certain discussions. At the moment, I do not think that the way in which this appears in the clause is wholly satisfactory. In particular, the noble Viscount dealt with the admissibility of evidence point. We are in the process of having a look at this question and we shall be putting something before the House on Report.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS: I am very glad that we have identified a common source of dissatisfaction. Plainly the best course will be for me to await what the Govenment have to say. I reserve the right to criticise it if I do not like it, but at the moment I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 71 agreed to.
Clause 72 [Assistance by, Commission]:
5.50 p.m.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS moved Amendment No. 64:
Page 43, line 36, after ("involved") insert ("or the applicant's financial circumstances").
The noble Viscount said: To start with I know that the Government are not going to accept this Amendment so I need not have any bold hopes. Nevertheless, it is something that I should like the Committee to consider. The point is that there will be cases where people are discriminated against in the course of their employment, that is to say under Part II of the Bill, where, if they are going to do anything about it at all, they have to go before the industrial tribunal. We heard on Second Reading, and it has been said before, that at the present moment (for financial reasons that I entirely understand)
1406
legal aid will not be available for people who wish to take cases before the industrial tribunal. Therefore, if they do it will have to be at their own expense. I do not suppose it will be terribly expensive, unless there is a great deal of evidence to be called, but, all the same, people will have to take time off work, there will be a certain amount of marshalling of evidence, there will be work involved in looking up the Bill and looking up Law Reports and spending time in the public library. One does not go before even the most informal tribunal without taking a certain amount of trouble, and particularly if you are complaining about discrimination.
If you happen to have been discriminated against in one of the connections referred to in Part III of the Bill, that is to say the provision of facilities and so on, then of course you can obtain legal aid because you are going before one of the ordinary courts where legal aid is provided. So at the moment there is a positive disadvantage for a person who wishes to take up a point on employment. The only palliative that has been produced in this Bill—and of course I understand the difficulty on financial terms, because if you have legal aid before the industral tribunal there are 101 other tribunals which would require the same treatment. The only palliative which has been put forward is in Clause 72, whereby the Equal Opportunities Commission can give some assistance. I am in no way dissatisfied with the idea that they should do so; in fact it must be a very good thing. Many will be the case where they wish to take up an important matter on behalf of some individual and it happens to be the test case on an important principle. That really is the matter dealt with in Clause 72(1)(a).
There are however other cases which do not necessarily raise an important matter of principle, where nevertheless under the Bill the Commission can help a person who wishes to take a case before any of the tribunals or courts to which the Bill applies. Those cases are dealt with under Clause 72(1)(b). or by the words "by reason of any other special consideration". Paragraph (b) says that they can grant aid or assistance if
"it is unreasonable, having regard to the complexity of the case "—

1407
that is one thing—
"or the applicant's position in relation to the respondent"—
which I suppose might be a personal relationship or an employment relationship or something of that sort—
" or another person involved "—
and one can imagine the sort of circumstances; it might be a family thing, or I know not what—
"or any other matter".
The point of my Amendment is this: what is "any other matter" or "by reason of any other special consideration"? Does that include cases where the woman concerned, or, if it happens to be that sort of case, the man concerned, just cannot afford to do it on his or her own? Does this include power for the Commission to deal with a case by way of assistance simply—being fairly blunt about it—where legal aid ought otherwise to be provided? I wonder whether the noble Lord would consider this. At the moment I see no reason why "any other matter" should not include the financial position of the applicant. If it does, then all is well; but then of course we have a difficulty, because that goes against the principle that we heard about on Second Reading. On the other hand, if you do not spell it out you leave a doubt, and inevitably there will be hard cases which do not get assisted and they might have been if only those words had been in the Bill.
I think there is a difficulty here. It may be one for a compromise, but at any rate would the noble Lord tell the Committee how we are to get over this difficulty of a proper case—not one of principle, not particularly difficult but one that needs to have a little financial assistance? Can the Commission do it or not? I beg to move.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: A moment or two ago the noble Viscount referred to a point made, I think, in my speech on the Second Reading of this Bill. On the principle here I think we should be clear that the primary role of the Commission is the strategic one of identifying and eliminating discrimination. It is a deliberate decision by the Government that individuals should have direct access to courts and to tribunals, and that complaints should not be handled
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through a central body as they are in the case of the race relations legislation. We are anxious that people should go directly to the courts, and indeed to tribunals, without necessarily involving any intervention by the Commission. The trade unions, for instance, will take their members' cases directly to tribunals on their own account, without intervention by the Commission.
The question which the noble Viscount raised at the end of
his speech was what discretion would the Commission have in regard to this particular point. My view of the matter is this. As he rightly surmised, we do not find ourselves able to accept this Amendment because it could have substantial financial implications at a time when public expenditure is rightly under severe examination, and it would not be right—and I am sure the noble Viscount is not suggesting this in any event—to give some form of backdoor legal aid machinery for tribunals in particular, whereby the Commission would eventually be in a situation where it was processing substantial numbers of applications from people who did not have adequate financial resources. Obviously, we would very much like to extend legal aid to tribunals, but in the present financial situation it is clearly quite out of the question.
The point asked by the noble Viscount is, whether the Commission would have to disregard the financial situation of a particular applicant. The answer is, No, they would not; they would certainly have discretion in the matter. I think the noble Viscount will recognise that a situation could arise involving a fairly complex question—perhaps a borderline case—as to whether or not the Commission were going to give assistance. In a situation of that sort it would be perfectly right for the Commission to take account of the financial situation of the person concerned. I fear we could not go wider than that and make this explicit without creating expectations which could not conceivably be realised in the present financial situation. That. I fear, is why we cannot accept this Amendment; but I hope the assurance I have been able to give will to some extent meet the point raised by the noble Viscount.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS: I think the Committee may find that

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helpful. Of course I understand what the noble Lord has said. But it is not perhaps so much myself or members of this Committee who need to be reassured; I suspect that the people who would like to know what is the Government's attitude are the members of the Commission themselves. They do not have to disregard what is said in Parliament in the way the courts do; they can read speeches made in this House and in another place, and I think they may be comforted and helped by what the noble Lord has just said. On that basis I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 72 agreed to.
Clause 73 [Period within which proceedings to be brought]:
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH moved Amendment No. 65:
Page 44, line 28, leave out ("three") and insert ("six").
The noble Lord said: This is an Amendment on which, by some curious act of fate, the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, and my Department had the same view at precisely the same time, and therefore in his absence I will explain why the Government have come to the conclusion that we should change the time limit. This affects proceedings in county and sheriff courts. We have come to the conclusion that three months is unduly restrictive and it will be far better to have a period of six months. I do not think it is necessary to add to that. I beg to move.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS: I have observed that my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn has just come back into the Chamber. I am sure he will be delighted to know that, to the surprise of us all, the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, has just suggested to the Committee that for very good reasons we should accept his Amendment. I am sure my noble friend is extremely grateful. I do not want to say more. I am very glad my noble friend is here to move the next Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
6 p.m.
Lord DRUMALBYN Lord DRUMALBYN moved Amendment No. 66:
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Page 44, line 36, after ("act") insert ("or the last of a series of acts").
The noble Lord said: This is a very simple Amendment. The purpose of it is to make Clause 73(3) read:
"A county court or sheriff court shall not consider an application under section 69 unless it is made before the end of the period of six months beginning when the act "—
and here I would insert the words:
" or the last of a series of acts to which it relates was done."
It is to enable a series of acts to be taken into account. I think this is well precedented in legislation. I do not know whether it commends itself to the Government. I beg to move.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: Having looked at this matter, I do not feel that there is a great need for it. If we are talking about a series of acts, assuming the particular insertion is of the same character, it is difficult to know why one of them should be any different from the others. With great respect to the noble Lord, I am not quite clear that this Amendment carries us a great deal further. If we are talking about a series of similar acts, I do not see why one of them is more significant than the others. I understand that the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, may be about to intervene. It would be helpful to have the matter clarified, because I am not clear of the intention.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS: It was not my idea, but I can envisage that there might be circumstances where this happens. Supposing one has to piece together a process whereby discrimination occurs. The last bit of the process may occur and it may not in itself be sufficient to establish that there was discrimination. One wants to look at a course of conduct which has occurred over a period of time. The course of conduct manifests itself by a series of different acts done by the discriminator. One would want to be able to tell the whole story, and one would not want to be put out of time because the thing that actually led to the culmination, and which was the last in the series of acts, was not in itself sufficient to establish one's case. This is the sort of circumstance where I can see there might be advantage in having this kind of provision in the Bill. Perhaps there is merit in what my noble friend suggested.
Baroness GAITSKELL: May I appeal to the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, whose legal skills I constantly admire. This Bill is very complicated, and I beg the noble Viscount not to make it more complicated by such things as this.
Lord BEAUMONT of WHITLEY: I do not know whether it is true—I bow before the legal wisdom of other speakers—but is there not a point here dealing with a situation of persistent discrimination and wanting to do something under Section 68? If in fact someone has discriminated over a period of time in very much the same way, but it is only the last thing you catch which is within time, I should have thought it was not unfair or unjust that the court should be able to refer to acts before that in order to establish that what was happening was persistent discrimination.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: I will gladly have another look at the point.
Lord DRUMALBYN: I am much obliged to the noble Lord I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: I beg to move Amendment No. 67.
Amendment moved—
Page 44, line 43, leave out from ("if") to end of line 45 and insert (" in all the circumstances of the case, it considers that it is just and equitable to do so").—(Lord Harris of Greenwich.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 73, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 74 agreed to.
6.7 p.m.
Lord CROWTHER-HUNT Lord CROWTHER-HUNT moved Amendment No. 68:
After Clause 74 insert the following new clause:
Educational charities in England and Wales
" .—(1) This section applies to any trust deed or other instrument—

(a) which concerns property applicable for or in connection with the provision of education in any establishment in paragraphs 1 to 5 of the Table in section 22, and

(b) which in any way restricts the benefits available under the instrument to persons of one sex.

(2)If on the application of the trustees, or of the responsible body (as defined in section 22), the Secretary of State is satisfied that the removal or modification of the restriction would conduce to the advancement of education without sex discrimination, he may by order make such modifications of the instrument as appear to him expedient for removing or modifying the restriction, and for any supplemental or incidental purposes.
(3) If the trust was created by gift or bequest, no order shall be made until 25 years after the date on which the gift or bequest took effect, unless the donor or his personal representatives, or the personal representatives of the testator, have consented in writing to the making of the application for the order.
(4) The Secretary of State shall require the applicant to publish notice—

(a) containing particulars of the proposed order, and

(b) stating that representations may be made to the Secretary of State within a period specified in the notice.

(5) The period specified in the notice shall not be less than one month from the date of the notice.
(6) The applicants shall publish the notice in such manner as may be specified by the Secretary of State, and the cost of any publication of the notice may be defrayed out of the property of the trust.
(7) Before making the order the Secretary of State shall take into account any representations duly made in accordance with the notice.
(8) This section does not apply in Scotland."
The noble Lord said: In introducing the debate on 1st July, my noble friend Lord Harris of Greenwich said that the Government intended to introduce an Amendment to make it easier for the trustees of educational trusts, whose benefits are now restricted to members of one sex, to open them up to both sexes. The Government indicated in another place their sympathy for the purpose behind an Amendment relating to charities, although for a number of reasons it could not be accepted as it stood. New Clause 74A, and as respects Scotland new Clause 74B, fulfils the undertaking then given that an Amendment relating to educational trusts would be placed before your Lordships.
It is a longstanding principle of charity law that so far as is practicable the wishes of the donor should be respected by law. Education is, however, an area in which it is important that the law should reflect social change, and the power which is conferred on Education Ministers by this clause is not without precedent in the

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educational context. In the last century, the need for flexibility to meet educational developments was recognised in the Endowed Schools Acts and more recently the Education Act 1973 enables the Secretary of State to make modifications of educational trust instruments in certain circumstances. In particular he may, under Section 1(2)(a) of the Act, make such modification as appears to be requisite in consequence of proposals for the reorganisation of schools approved by him under Section 13 of the Education Act 1944. If the Secretary of State did not have such a power it would often not be possible for the governors of a maintained school to implement their statutory obligations without breaching the terms of the trusts regulating the school foundations.
The powers of the Charity Commissioners to widen the trusts of an educational charity by a scheme under the Charities Act 1960 are exercisable only in limited circumstances, and the 1973 Education Act recognised that school governors must not thereby be prevented from making such changes in their schools as are necessary to enable them to participate fully in educational developments. The Secretary of State's powers under the 1973 Act can be exercised to alter the trust deed of a single-sex maintained school to permit co-education but his powers do not extend to independent schools in this respect.
Against this background, the Government consider that it would be in accordance with the spirit of the Bill to permit trustees of educational trusts whose objects are restricted to benefiting persons of one sex, to apply to the Education Ministers for an order removing or modifying the restrictions so that the benefits can be made available to persons of the other sex. This will enable, for example, trustees providing scholarships for men only to apply for approval to make them available also to women. It would also make it easier for the trustees of an independent single-sex school to move towards co-education.
I turn now to a description of the new clause. Subsections (1) and (2) will enable the Secretary of State for Education and Science or the Secretary of State for Wales to modify deeds and other instruments regulating certain educational charities by removing any restriction contained in them on the availability of
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benefits to persons of one sex. The power will extend to all trust deeds and other instruments, including enactments, which regulate any property which is applicable for or in connection with the provision of education in any of the establishments which are listed at paragraphs 1 to 5 of the Table in Section 22. It will be exercisable only upon the application of the trustees or other responsible body, and only if the appropriate Secretary of State is satisfied that the removal or modification of the restriction would conduce to the advancement of education without sex discrimination. The power will be exercisable by order.
Under subsections (4) to (7) it will be necessary for the applicants to comply with certain requirements as to publication of notice of the proposals similar to those contained in the Charities Act 1960 and there will be opportunity for representations to be made to the Secretary of State before the order is made. Subsection (3) provides that the power will not be exercisable in respect of a trust created by a gift or bequest until a period of 25 years has elapsed since the date upon which the gift or bequest took effect unless the donor or his personal representatives, or the personal representatives of the testator, have consented to the making of the application.
As I have already said, the power could be exercised for modification of deeds regulating independent schools whose governors wish them to become co-educational and for the modification of instruments regulating ancillary trusts; for example prize funds and scholarships at single-sex institutions which become co-educational. I should make it clear, however, that it would not be exercised so as to modify, for example, a trust under which scholarships at a co-educational institution are tenable by pupils from a particular single-sex school by removing the reference to that school or enlarging it so as to include a school for members of the other sex. I therefore commend this clause to your Lordships. I beg to move.
Lord BLAKE: I should like, if I may, as a trustee of probably one of the biggest single-sex educational trusts, namely, the trust set up in the will of Cecil Rhodes, to say how much I and my co-trustees welcome the Amendment just

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proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Crowther-Hunt. Ever since I have been a trustee, and long before that, the trustees have been endeavouring to make Rhodes scholarships open to women as well as men. But after taking the best legal advice we could, we came to the conclusion that it was impossible, as the law now stands or has stood hitherto, to do anything about it at all. Rhodes' will was made over 70 years ago and was quite specific in its limitation to men only. This proviso was perhaps not unreasonable or surprising at the time it was made. And, of course, it was the will of somebody who was a lifelong bachelor and had the reputation, perhaps wrongly, of being a woman-hater. But one cannot say, of course, that it is impossible to carry out its provisions.
We were told that the only legal way to change this limitation was by promoting a private Act of Parliament, and that apart from the other difficulties that there might be insuch a procedure the courts would not allow the trust's own funds to be used in order to, the courts would say, frustrate the purposes of the trust. I am bound to say that as a general doctrine that does not seem unreasonable. The Amendment now before the Committee would give us just what we wanted; it does not, of course, compel the trustees to take steps to remove these limitations, nor does it give them an unfettered power to do so, and that also seems to me to be quite right. It does empower them to make an application to the Secretary of State, and it empowers him, if he thinks fit, and subject to representations, to grant the application.
In all the circumstances, it seems to us, at any rate, to be a most excellent solution to a difficult problem. I know that my noble friend Lord Harcourt, who is the chairman of the trustees, would certainly say the same if he were here. I can safely predict that if this goes through the Rhodes Trust will be among the first single-sex educational trusts to make an application to the Secretary of State.
Lord CROWTHER-HUNT: I am grateful for the words of the noble Lord, Lord Blake. As he rightly says, this is one of the objects we had in mind in this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
6.15 p.m.
Lord CROWTHER-HUNT Lord CROWTHER-HUNT moved Amendment No. 69:
After Clause 74 insert the following new clause:
Educational endowments, etc. to which Part VI of the Education (Scotland) Act 1962 applies.
" .—(1) This section applies to any educational endowment to which Part VI of the Education (Scotland) Act 1962 applies and which in any way restricts the benefit of the endowment to persons of one sex and any reference to an educational endowment in this section includes a reference to

(a) a scheme made or approved for that endowment under that Part of the Education (Scotland) Act 1962;

(b) any endowment which is, by virtue of section 121(1) of that Act, dealt with as if it were an educational endowment; and

(c) a university endowment, the Carnegie Trust, a theological endowment and a new endowment.

(2) If, on the application of the governing body of an educational endowment, the Secretary of State is satisfied that the removal or modification of the provision which restricts the benefit of the endowment to persons of one sex would conduce to the advancement of education without sex discrimination, he may, by order, make such modifications to the endowment as appear to him expedient for removing or modifying the restriction and for any supplemental or incidental purposes.
(3) Where the Secretary of State proposes to make an order under this section, he shall publish a notice, in such manner as he thinks sufficient for giving information to persons whom he considers may be interested in the endowment

(a) containing particulars of the proposed order; and

(b) stating that representations may be made with respect thereto within such period as may be specified in the notice, not being less than one month from the date of publication of the notice,

and the cost of publication of any such notice shall be paid out of toe funds of the endowment to which the notice relates.
(4) Before making any order under this section, the Secretary of State shall consider any representations duly made in accordance with the said notice and he may cause a local inquiry to be held into such representations under section 68 of the Education (Scotland) Act 1962.
(5) Without prejudice to section 76(4) of this Act, any order made under this section may be varied or revoked in a scheme made or approved under Part VI of the Education (Scotland) Act 1962.
(6) For paragraph (b) of section 123(1) of the Education (Scotland) Act 1962, there shall be substituted the following paragraph—
"(b) where he considers it expedient to do so, provide for extending to both sexes the benefit of the endowment".
(7) This section shall be construed as one with Part VI of the Education (Scotland) Act 1962."
The noble Lord said: This is a separate clause for Scotland designed to take account of the rather different legal framework governing educational charities there. There is no substantial difference in principle, however, from the clause that your Lordships have just accepted. Under the Education (Scotland) Act 1962, the Secretary of State has power to make schemes for the reorganisation of educational endowments, and the purpose of the clause under consideration here is to give the Secretary of State power to remove restrictions to one sex in any endowment for which he may make a scheme. The power may be exercised either by order as in the English Amendment, or by a scheme made under the existing Act. It is noteworthy that the 1962 Act itself, by Section 123(1)(b), provides that in framing a scheme the Secretary of State shall, so far as can be equitably arranged and as the circumstances of each particular locality require, provide for extending to both sexes the benefit of the endowment. This goes some way towards satisfying the principle embodied in the English Amendment and requires only the Amendment proposed at subsection (6) in the Scottish clause to bring it completely into line. The Secretary of State would thus be enabled to remove sex discrimination in an endowment by means of a scheme which perhaps effected a more general reorganisation of the endowment; but the power to remove such a restriction by order is also required, so that the potentially cumbersome scheme-making machinery need not be set in motion when all that is required is a simple removal of a sex restriction. I therefore commend the new clause to your Lordships. I beg to move.
Lord DRUMALBYN: May I ask the noble Lord a question? There was a time many years ago when I was very much involved in the reorganisation of endowment schemes in Scotland. I remember that there was a right of appeal to the courts. Whether or not that still exists I do not know. It may be that because all this takes place on the application of the governing body of the educational endowment, it is not thought necessary to preserve that right. I do not know if the noble Lord can answer
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the question whether an appeal to the courts remains.
Lord CROWTHER-HUNT: I regret that I cannot answer that question, but I will write to the noble Lord about it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 75 [Power to amend certain provisions of Act]:
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: Perhaps we can take Amendments Nos. 70 and 71 together. These Amendments simply bring up to date Clause 75 to take account of the new clauses added to the Bill, first, in another place and, secondly, here. I beg to move Amendment No. 70.
Amendment moved—
Page 46, line 7, leave out from (" and (3)") to end of line, and insert (" Discrimination: Consent for assignment or sub-letting) (2), 31 to 34 and 42 to (Trade unions etc.: elective bodies)").—(Lord Harris of Greenwich.)
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS: I cannot let the noble Lord get away with it quite that easily. The Committee may remember that I asked the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, about the new clause which is called Trade unions etc.; elective bodies, which was put in as Amendment No. 47 last Tuesday. I asked at the time what was the purpose of taking power under Clause 75 by Statutory Instrument to amend it. Was it something that was going to be a temporary provision—that is to say, the new clause—and was it something that we really needed to have power to repeal? If we were not going to repeal it—the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, will remember that she agreed with me that we wanted to see these transitional provision kept as transitional—what was the Amendment that the Government had in mind to make, or what sort of Amendment; I do not necessarily wish to tie it down to the type of Statutory Instrument they might wish to introduce. Both the noble Baroness and I were happy with the new clause but we did not want to see it as a permanent feature of the legislation, and as there have been two days in which to think about it, perhaps the noble Lord can tell us the answer to the question now.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: I have listened to the discussion with interest and I will look at the point.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
6.21 p.m.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: I beg to move Amendment No. 71.
Amendment moved—
Page 46, line 12, leave out ("or 30") and insert ("30 or (Discrimination: Consent for assignment or sub-letting)").—(Lord Harris of Greenwich.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 75, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 76 [Orders]:
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH moved Amendments Nos. 73, 74 and 75:
Page 46, line 24, leave out ("46(2)(b)") and insert ("(Discriminatory training by certain bodies) (4)(b)").
Page 46, line 27, leave out (" 46(2)(b)") and insert (" (Discriminatory training by certain bodies) (4)(b)").
after ("75(1)") insert ("and, subject to subsection (3), section (Educational charities in England and Wales)").
The noble Lord said: I think that on this occasion I can assure the noble Viscount that these are Amendments of the most technical character.
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Lord CROWTHER-HUNT Lord CROWTHER-HUNT moved Amendment No. 76:
Page 46, line 28, at end insert—
("( ) Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply to an order under section (Educational charities in England and Wales) or (Educational endowments etc. to which Part VI of the Education (Scotland) Act 1962 applies), but—

(a) an order under section (Educational charities in England and Wales) which modifies an enactment, and

(b) any order under section (Educational endowments etc. to which Part VI of the Education (Scotland) Act 1962 applies) other than one which relates to an endowment to which section 128 of the Education (Scotland) Act 1962 (small endowments) applies,

shall be made by statutory instrument subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.")
The noble Lord said: Amendment No. 76 is consequential upon new Clauses 74A and 74B but makes slightly different provision in respect of England and Wales and of Scotland. In relation to orders made under Clause 74A, which deals with educational charities in England and Wales, the procedural requirements of subsections (1) and (2) are with one exception disapplied, so that orders made by the Education Minister for England
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and Wales under that clause are not to be made by Statutory Instrument subject to annulment by Resolution of either House of Parliament. The exception is an order which modifies an enactment. In Scotland, however, it is proposed that any order made by the Secretary of State under Clause 74B should be made by Statutory Instrument subject to annulment in pursuance of a Resolution of either House, unless the order relates to a small endowment.
Orders made by the Education Minister for England and Wales under Section 1 of the Education Act 1973—that is, orders modifying trustees in consequence of proposals approved under Section 13 of the Education Act 1944—are not made by Statutory Instruments, nor indeed were schemes made by Ministers under the Charities Act 1960 when they exercised that jurisdiction. It is not thought necessary, therefore, to make orders under the new clause by Statutory Instrument subject to annulment in pursuance of a Resolution of either House, except where the Instrument creating the trust is itself an enactment. In such cases, it is considered appropriate that Parliament should have the opportunity to consider the order.
In Scotland it is desired to keep the form of any such order and the Parliamentary control applicable to any scheme for the reorganisation of an educational endowment made by the Secretary of State under Part VI of the Education (Scotland) Act 1962. In general, schemes made by the Secretary of State under that Part of that Act are Statutory Instruments, and may in certain circumstances become subject to annulment in pursuance of a Resolution of either House of Parliament. However, this does not apply to a small endowment which is an educational endowment with an annual value of less than £500. Section 128 of that Act provides a simplified procedure for making a scheme in relation to such an endowment. It would therefore seem appropriate to provide that in Scotland any order relating to any education endowment should be made by Statutory Instrument subject to annulment, except any order relating to a small endowment.
Lord DRUMALBYN: It looks to me as if the noble Lord, Lord Crowther-Hunt, has given the answer about which

1421
the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, was going to write to me. If that is so, I exempt the noble Lord, Lord Harris, from writing to me.
Baroness PHILLIPS: I do not wish to cast a spanner into the works at this late stage, but I am becoming more and more confused and if the Minister cannot give me an answer now perhaps he would send me a letter. At the beginning of the proceedings on the Bill, I understand that the charitable organisation of which I am general secretary, which is a women's organisation, was under rather different terms of reference from some of the later clauses; in other words, we would not be regarded as discriminators if we did not accept men—always assuming that men wished to come. I now learn that we are an educational charity and I begin to get the feeling that there is a difference between a charity and an educational trust. I am wondering whether I am confused or whether there is a difference.
Lord CROWTHER-HUNT: I think I can answer the noble Baroness now, but in safety I would much prefer to write to her about it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 76, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 77 [General interpretation provisions]:
Baroness VICKERS Baroness VICKERS moved Amendment No. 79:
Page 46, line 39, leave out ("a deliberate") and insert ("an")
The noble Baroness said: I should like to move the Amendent which is down under the names of my noble friends and myself. As I understand it, this clause defines the word "act", which is used throughout the Bill, as "a deliberate omission ", but I consider that many cases brought when this Bill becomes an Act will involve omissions; for example, omissions to offer employment, a loan or further training. So the effect of this definition will be that the complainant will have to prove that such omission was deliberate. This amounts to requiring that he or she must prove intent, since the burden of proof is normally placed on the complainant.
It was argued in Committee in another place that tribunals and courts would construe the term reasonably. In the years that I have been in both Houses, I have found that the word "reasonably" often becomes very unreasonable when it comes to defining it. Also, recent rape cases have thrown some doubt on the reasonableness of the courts. It might be argued that the word "deliberately" was used in the Race Relations Act, but I suggest it was not used throughout that Act and that in Section 28(1) an "act is defined as including omission "—not deliberate omission. Neither is "act" defined in the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act 1974 as including only deliberate omissions.
I ask if the burden of proof is to rest on the complainant, and the discriminator as an adversary will be better armed than she—probably better financed and with better legal advice—is it not unreasonable if, in addition to proving that the act of omission took place, she must show that it was also intentional? I beg to move.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: As the noble Baroness said, there was discussion on this point in another place. The first point I should like to make is that Amendment No. 79 would not have the effect of including inadvertent omissions. The reason is that where an omission is made unlawful in the Bill—for example, Clauses 6(1)(c), 22(b) and 29(1)(a)—the relevant provisions relate to deliberate omissions only. I doubt, therefore, whether the Amendment would have any practical effect of any kind.
There are two lines of argument for ensuring that the Bill deals with omissions only in so far as they are deliberate. The first, to take a straight forward example, is that an employer should not be liable under the Bill for omitting, quite inadvertently, to consider a woman's application for a job. I do not feel that that would make any sense of any sort. It would bring the Bill into disrepute and that is something which I am sure we are all determined to avoid. On the second line of argument, I do not think it would make any sense to say that an inadvertent omission can constitute discrimination as regards direct discrimination under Clause 1(1)(a). I find it difficult to visualise a situation in which a person could be said

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to have treated a woman less favourably on the grounds of her sex by accidentally omitting, for example, to provide her with some facility or another. For these reasons, I hope the noble Baroness will not press the Amendment.
Baroness VICKERS: I thank the noble Lord for that explanation and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: I beg to move Amendment No. 80, which is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 47, leave out lines 9 to 14.—(Lord Harris of Greenwich.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
On Question, Whether Clause 77, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord MONSON: I ventured to suggest on Second Reading that subsection (1) of this clause—which specifies that films, photographs and illustrations generally form advertisements—when taken in conjunction with Clause 37 could present profound and perhaps unforseen problems for advertisers, and the noble Lord who replied on Second Reading did nothing to deny or refute my suppositions. The more I examine this clause the more far-reaching its effects appear to be. For the sake of simplicity and to save time, I will take as an example only a selection of newspaper advertisements concerned with the recruitment of personnel, which are accompanied by illustrations showing the sort of job situations that the lucky applicants are likely to encounter.
The Abbey National Building Society for example, is advertising for management trainees. This is accompanied by an illustration showing six people working behind a counter in an Abbey National office, three of them men and three of them women; so, clearly, the Abbey National Building Society is on the side of the angels so far as this Bill is concerned and has nothing to fear. I turn to another advertisement
which talks about "the men we need" and immediately one's ears prick up. It seeks cost engineers, planners and estimators and, what is more, it shows three people, all of them male, wearing overalls and safety
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helmets. However, one goes on to read that the advertiser is the Nchanga Consolidated Copper Mines of Zambia, so presumably that concern is exempted by Clause 35 and it, too, has nothing to fear.
One then turns to look at Ferranti's advertisement. Ferranti is advertising for technical authors and the accompanying illustration is a head and shoulders silhouette; the features are quite rugged and the haircut is short—it could possibly be an urchin cut, but that is out of fashion now—and from the solidity of the shoulders I take it to be a male silhouette. Clearly, therefore, if Ferranti wants to do the right thing, it will have to alternate this silhouette with a rather more curvaceous one. The same applies to Plessey, which is advertising for software engineers. The advertisement contains a photograph, a rather blurred one, of a somewhat paunchy male in his shirtsleeves and tie and that firm, too, will presumably have to alternate.
Then one comes to an advertisement by British Home Stores, which will really get into hot water if it does not do something about its advertisements. It is currently advertising for distribution managers with starting salaries of £3,000. No fewer than six individuals are depicted in the accompanying drawing; four of them are beyond any question males, there are two rather indistinct but broad-shouldered figures shown in the cab of a heavy lorry and, unless they are perhaps former Olympic athletes from behind the Iron Curtain, I suggest that they are males, too. Finally, one comes to an advertisement by Woodall Duckham, another public company, which depicts three figures in its advertisement; two men and one woman. There is a man in a safety helmet, obviously leading some sort of outdoor life, operating a bulldozer or whatever it might be; there is another male leaning forward over a draftsman's desk, while the woman has a telephone in one hand and is jotting down something on a note pad with the other. It so happens that the woman is the happiest looking of the trio, with a contented smile on her face, but we know that does not matter because she surely must have been conditioned by an unjust male-dominated society into accepting a stereo-typed feminine role. If Woodall Duckham know what is good for them,

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presumably they will show her in the next advertisement changed from her quite attractive dress into a boiler suit and crash helmet, driving heavy earth moving equipment. I wonder whether the noble Lord can confirm that my suppositions are broadly correct?
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: The noble Lord, Lord Monson, made so many suppositions that it is difficult for me to identify which to reply to. The only point I would make on the issue of advertising—and I do this in the presence of the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, who I am sure will agree with me on this—is that I am quite sure the advertisers, particularly those identified by the noble Lord, will be anxious to fall in line with the general spirit of this Bill; not only the letter of it, but the spirit as well. It is important to recognise that if we are going to deal, as we must, with discrimination against women, which has been going on for a very long period of years, we have to deal with the problem of advertising and I know that the advertising industry will take its responsibilities extremely seriously.
If the noble Lord had been here earlier, when I was involved in discussion with the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, on the question whether one should have a statutory or voluntary code, then, if the noble Lord is as concerned with this issue as I know him to be, he would have been gratified to hear me say that the Commission must and will take its responsibilities seriously, particularly in this field. I use this as an illustration to advertisers and others who may be interested to give some indication of how they see the Bill biting, and I am sure that will be done. However, I do not have any of the nightmarish fears which possess the noble Lord, Lord Monson, on this point and I hope that that to some extent reassures him.
Lord SEGAL: Would not these advertisers be exonerated on the ground that it is not deliberate discrimination?
Clause 77, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 78 [Transitional and commencement provisions, amendments and repeals.]:
6.39 p.m.
Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBY Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBY moved Amendment No. 80B:
Page 50, line 15, at end insert—
(" ( ) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (2), section 12 shall not come into operation until the expiration of the period of two years beginning with the passing of this Act.")
The noble Lord said: This is the Amendment which I tabled the other day and it was referred to in the course of the speech of my noble friend the Minister of State for the Department of Education and Science on the teachers' trade union problem, a matter raised by the noble Lord, Lord Alexander of Potterhill, and myself on Clause 12. The Amendment seeks to absolve the unions in the teaching profession from complying with Clause 12 for a period of two years, if that would be for their convenience. They can do it earlier if they like, but they would not be required to do it in under two years.
It may be that I have drawn the Amendment too widely. Both
the noble Lord, Lord Alexander of Potterhill, and I were thinking of the teaching professions and not of the unions generally. If my noble friend feels that it would be more convenient to relate the Amendment more closely to the teaching profession, I should be quite agreeable and, if my noble friend will tell the Committee that the principle of the Amendment is accepted and that the period stipulated in it seems reasonable, subject to the redrafting, I shall certainly ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Lord CROWTHER-HUNT: I believe that this can be dealt with relatively quickly to the satisfaction of all concerned. I should like first of all to clear up a certain amount of confusion that may have arisen over the Goverment's attitude to the Amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Alexander of Potterhill, in this Committee on Monday, moved an Amendment which would, we believe, have enabled only four unions—the Associations of Headmasters, Headmistresses, Assistant Masters and Assistant Mistresses—to continue to

1427
operate on a single-sex basis. It was clear during the debate that many noble Lords and noble Baronesses were concerned about the particular problems of these organisations. On consideration, the Government have accepted that there is a case for allowing the four unions concerned a measure of time to adjust to the requirements of the Bill. When I replied to the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, on Amendment No. 22, which had a similar purpose, I indicated that we were prepared to give a transitional period to these unions. I regret that what I said may also have left the impression that the Government were inclined to support the present Amendment, which is very much more widely drawn and which would apply to the whole of Clause 12.
I shall not go into details as to why we cannot accept that the concession should apply to the whole of Clause 12, but I should like just to make clear what the Government are proposing to do. We undertake to bring forward an Amendment on Report which will give the four unions in the teaching profession, about which many of your Lordships have expressed concern, a transitional period of two years before the provisions of the Bill regarding membership come into effect in their case. We propose that the application to those unions of Clause 12 should be deferred until 1st January 1978. This will, I hope, meet much of the case which was argued by the noble Lord, Lord Alexander, the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, and others at the Committee stage. It is on that understanding that I hope my noble friend will feel ready to withdraw the Amendment.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS: I am very glad to hear what the noble Lord, Lord Crowther-Hunt has just said. I am sure that the Amendment is too wide and there is no necessity to exempt all trade unions from the provisions of the Bill, any more than there is any necessity to exempt anybody else unless there is very special reason for doing so. If the noble Lord is suggesting a narrower Amendment to deal with the special case which we have been arguing, I am very happy about it and I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, is of the same mind and will not be pressing this rather wide Amendment.
Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBY: I am quite satisfied with the reply and assurance given by my noble friend, and I would only add that we must understand that, when the two-year period is up, Clause 12 will not thereupon make such organisations unlawful. It means merely that they must open their ranks to both sexes and must adjust their existence to that requirement. I make this point in order to remove any suggestion that, at the expiry of two years, some axe will come down and chop them off, so that they will be prevented from living in their accustomed role. They will be free to go on, if they wish, to put up with all the inconvenience and difficulties which would arise from having mixed membership of organisations which were previously tied to a single sex.
I believe that that explanation is worth while in order to indicate that there is nothing in Clause 12 or in the Amendment which the Government are to move which is draconian in the sense of completely disrupting the trade union position of the unions concerned. It will only make the difference I have tried to describe. It will be for the convenience of the unions concerned and, in accordance with the purposes of the Bill, it will make for good order and discipline if the unions adjust themselves to the new concept of trade union organisation being on the basis of free access to trade union membership for both men and women. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 78 agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
Schedule 1 [Equal Pay Act 1970]:
6.48 p.m.
Baroness SEEAR Baroness SEEAR moved Amendment No. 80A:
Page 53, line 12, at end insert:
(" 2A. In section 3, after "women only" there is inserted "such provision shall be unlawful; but"").
The noble Baroness said: With the permission of the Committee, I will take this Amendment with Amendment No. 81A, because it is a paving Amendment to Amendment No. 81A and the substance of the Amendment is to be found on page 56, line 40, which is referred

1429
to in Amendment No. 81A. Paragraph 3 of Part II of Schedule 1, with which the Amendment is concerned, says:
"Where a collective agreement made before or after the commencement of this Act contains any provision applying specifically to men only or to women only, the agreement may be referred, by any party to it or by the Secretary of State, to the Industrial Abitration Board …".
This implies that different treatment of men and women in a collective agreement remains lawful unless it is referred to the Industrial Arbitration Board for the latter to rule that it is not lawful.
It has been very widely supposed since the passing of the Equal Pay Act 1970 that Section 3 of that Act would make it unlawful for any collective agreement, after the coming into force of the Act at the end of December 1975, to contain differential treatment of men and women. This is a misapprehension if the interpretation I am giving of this paragraph is correct. If it is a misapprehension, it is one which is widespread and it is based, among other things, on the Second Reading speech in another place on that Act, when the Minister said:
"Where, on the operative date,"—
that is, the end of December 1975—
"a collective agreement or pay structure specifies a class of work or workers, however defined, to which separate men's and women's rates are attached, the women's rate must be raised to the level of the men's rate. And where an agreement or structure contains a women's rate as such—that is, without any description of the jobs that women do—that rate must be raised to the level of the lowest men's rate in the agreement. The effect of this on the women concerned is that none would get less than the lowest male rate and some might get more, depending on the jobs they actually perform."—[Official Report, Commons; 9/2/70; col. 920.]
This impression was further reinforced in a number of ways, but I shall draw your Lordships' attention particularly to an official publication from the Office of Manpower Economics discussing equal pay, in which it says at page 37,
" Amongst other matters the Act requires the removal from collective agreements and employers' pay structures of separate men's and women's rates and where this has not been done by December 1975, employers will be required to raise women's rates to the lowest men's rates."
But if one reads carefully Section 3 of the Act, which is the subject of this Amendment, one sees that it does not say that.
1430
It says only that such differences can be referred to industrial arbitration.
The purpose of the Amendment is to render such differentiating collective agreements illegal and unlawful, and the argument about them can subsequently be referred to the Industrial Arbitration Board. The Amendment seeks to confirm what many of us have believed to be the law, and what has been discussed as the law in many quarters: that no collective agreement, after the end of this year, is lawful to the extent that it discriminates between men and women. It is implicit in the clause as it stands, when read very carefully, that that is not so and that it does not say that. The clause says only that where there are such differences the matter can be referred to arbitration. Indeed, the fact that it says that implies that such differences remain lawful. It is in order that it can be quite clear that after the end of this year agreements may not contain differential treatment for men and women that I beg to move.
6.52 p.m.
Lord JACQUES: The objective of this Amendment is one of the objectives of the Bill; that is, to remove discriminatory references to women from all collective agreements. Therefore, we start in the position that our objectives are the same. The difference between us is on what are the desirable methods. At the time when the Equal Pay No. 2 Bill was drafted, the ways of achieving this objective were thoroughly examined, and the procedure which was eventually adopted was that which caused discriminatory agreements to be referred to the Industrial Arbitration Board for amendment. It was felt that this was the most practicable way of dealing with discriminatory agreements. However, we have looked at the noble Baroness's Amendments, and we feel that the consequence of this Amendment would be quite undesirable.
A collective agreement generally has no legal status until its provisions are incorporated into the contracts of employment of individual employees. Thus, if a certain provision of a collective agreement were made unlawful by virtue of this Amendment, a woman's contract which referred to these provisions would contain unlawful provisions. She would therefore be unable to enforce her contract in those terms. The effect of such

1431
an Amendment would therefore not increase the rights of women, but diminish those rights. It is in that sense that we think the Amendment is undesirable. May I put it another way? The noble Baroness wants to take away the inferior agreement. "full stop". The Government's attitude is that we get hold of the inferior agreement and we amend it. In other words, our method is a practicable one of putting something in place of the unlawful agreement.
Although the Equal Pay Act has not yet come into force, my right honourable friend has already been acting. In the past few months he has referred to the Arbitration Board three cases of collective agreements which he felt were not moving fast enough towards equal pay. In one of these cases the agreement has been amended. In another case, by agreement between the parties, it has been referred back to the parties for amendment; and there is a third case still before the Board. Therefore, I hope that the noble Baroness will accept that the Government's method is not only a practical method, but is a method which the Government are using, and that the Government are not letting any grass grow under their feet.
Baroness SEEAR: I regret that the noble Lord has responded in the way that he has. Of course, I am aware that the Minister has been referring cases to the Industrial Arbitration Board. But there is a very substantial difference here. If the procedure, as outlined by the Minister, stays, it means that it is only those cases which are referred where a correction will be made, and the discriminatory situation remains unless and until the agreement is referred to the Arbitration Board. The point has been made that collective agreements are not enforceable at law, and that of course is correct. But the woman's individual contract, based on the Industrial Agreement, is enforceable at law, and it would be possible, if the Minister were so disposed, to re-draft this Amendment in such a way that contracts between the woman and the employer, based on a discriminatory industrial agreement, automatically became unlawful.
This is not an impossible way of dealing with the matter. I am sure the Minis-
1432
ter will recognise that there is a very important difference between saying that a particular type of contract is automatically unlawful, and saying that it is lawful until such time as it has been referred to arbitration, because although the larger, more conspicuous, agreements may well be referred to arbitration in due course, the procedure as it stands means that unless somebody takes it up and refers it, the discriminatory practice lawfully continues. That is what we want to avoid.
It may well be correct that one cannot automatically say that anything in the collective agreement is itself unlawful, although I am not absolutely convinced that that is so. The Minister may well be right on that. But I see no reason why it should not be said that any individual contract between a woman and an employer, based on a voluntary negotiated collective agreement which contains discriminatory clauses, automatically becomes unlawful.
Lord JACQUES: That is not the point of difference between us. The point of difference is that the noble Baroness wants to destroy the contract by saying that it is unlawful. But we want to go further than that. We think that direction is more important than speed, and we want to put something in place of the unlawful contract immediately. The noble Baroness, by what she proposes, is doing nothing but to leave the woman employee in the air. The woman employee would be left with an unlawful contract which she cannot enforce, and nothing would be put in its place. We take an entirely different view. We say that not only have we to destroy the contract which is discriminatory, but that we must put something else in its place. I stress, not only in relation to this provision but to many others in the Bill, that direction is far more important than speed.
Baroness SEEAR: I am sorry that the noble Lord does not understand what I am trying to do. He has failed to grasp the point that his procedure requires that someone should take up the case. In my approach, the case automatically falls if it is based on a discriminatory contract. The Minister seems to think that all such cases will automatically find their way to arbitration. They will not! He is

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relying on someone referring all such cases to arbitration.
This is a very optimistic view of the way in which agreements, especially the many smaller agreements which are made, will be handled, arid it requires that no agreement which is made which contains any discriminatory element should be allowed to constitute the basis of a contract between an employer and an employee. It becomes void because it is based on a discriminatory contract.
I do not think that we can usefully discuss this any further. I am prepared to withdraw the Amendment, but I would suggest that it be discussed more fully at Report stage. The weakness of the Government's case is that it depends on somebody taking the case to arbitration; but such cases do not always find their way to arbitration. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment, but hope it will be gone into fully on Report.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
7 p.m.
Lord JACQUES Lord JACQUES moved No. 81:
Page 53, line 19, leave out from ("child-birth") to end of line 20 and insert—
(" (1A) An equality clause and those provisions—

(a) shall operate in relation to terms relating to membership of an occupational pension scheme (within dig meaning of the Social Security Pensions Act 1975) so far as those terms relate to any matter in respect of which the scheme has to conform with the equal access requirements of Part IV of that Act; but

(b) subject to this, shall not operate in relation to terms related to death or retirement, or to any provision made in connection with death or retirement ")

The noble Lord said: With the leave of the Committee, I should like to speak to Amendments Nos. 81 and 82 together. The Social Security Pensions Bill, as introduced, extended the requirement of equal treatment for men and women in the Equal Pay Act 1970, so as to require equal treatment to be afforded as regards terms and conditions of employment relating to access to membership of an occupational pensions scheme. We think it right that this provision should be contained in the Equal Pay Act, rather than in the Social Security Pensions Bill. My noble friend Lord Wells-Pestell proposed a corresponding Amendment yesterday to
1434
the Social Security Pensions Bill which was accepted.
I think the Committee will appreciate that this would make some difference to the date of the legislation becoming effective. It is likely that this Bill will be effective as from 29th December this year; whereas the Social Security Pensions Bill will probably come into effect in 1977 or 1978; so that this speeds up the point in question. I beg to move.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS: I do not want to go into the merits of this. I simply want to ask the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, whether I am right in thinking that Amendment No. 82 ought to be in heavy black print to fit in with the rewriting of this part of the Equal Pay Act to set out the Amendments. Ought it not to have been in heavy black print on the Marshalled List?
Lord JACQUES: We will look into that.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Lord JACQUES: I beg to move Amendment No. 82 to which I have already spoken.
Amendment moved—
Page 60, line 6, leave out from (" child-birth") to end of line 7 and insert—
(" (1A) An equality clause and those provisions—

(a) shall operate in relation to terms relating to membership of an occupational pension scheme (within the meaning of the Social Security Pensions Act 1975) so far as those terms relate to any matter in respect of which the scheme has to conform with the equal access requirements of Part IV of that Act; but

(b) subject to this, shall not operate in relation to terms related to death or retirement, or to any provision made in connection with death or retirement ").—(Lord Jacques.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 2 [Transitional exemption orders for educational admissions]:
Lord CROWTHER-HUNT Lord CROWTHER-HUNT moved Amendment No. 83:
Page 62, line 29, leave out from ("Commission") to ("unless") in line 30 and insert ("on any application under paragraph 6 may if they think fit make a transitional exemption order, but shall not make such an order").
The noble Lord said: This Amendment corrects an omission from the Scottish paragraphs of Schedule 2. These paragraphs assume that both the Commission and the Secretary of State have powers to make transitional exemption orders in the sectors for which they are respectively responsible. However, as it stands, the Schedule expressly confers this power only on the Secretary of State (in paragraph 8); this Amendment secures that the Commission enjoys a similar express power to make orders (in paragraph 9).
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 2, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 3 agreed to.
Schedule 4 [Transitional and commencement provisions]:
Lord JACQUES Lord JACQUES moved Amendment No. 84:
Page 66, line 23, leave out from beginning to ("section") in line 24, and insert ("3.—(1)")
The noble Lord said: With the leave of the Committee, I should like to speak to Amendments Nos. 84 and 85 together. Paragraph 3 of the Schedule is defective in that it would continue to allow any discrimination on grounds of marriage, including, for example, the provision of a sick pay scheme for married and single men and single women, but not for married women. We think this is undesirable and the Government's Amendment seeks to confine the exclusion from the operation of the Equal Pay Act to existing rights to marriage gratuities or the commutation of such existing rights. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Lord JACQUES: I beg to move Amendment No. 85 formally.
Amendment moved—
Page 66, line 27, leave out ("marriage") and insert (" sums payable on marriage in pursuance of a contract of employment made before the passing of this Act, or the commutation, at any time, of the right to such sums.
(2) In relation to service within section 1(8) of the said Act of 1970 (service of the Crown) for the reference to a contract of employment made before the passing of this Act there shall be substituted a reference to terms of service entered into before the passing of this Act.")—(Lord Jacques.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 4, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 5 [Minor and consequential amendments]:
7.8 p.m.
Lord JACQUES Lord JACQUES moved Amendment No. 86:
Page 66, line 29, at end insert—
(" Factories Act 1961 (c. 34)
1. In section 15(2) (unfenced machinery: operations carried out by specified male persons) the word "male" shall be omitted.")
The noble Lord said: With the leave of the Committee, and especially with the approval of the noble Viscount, Lord Culross, I would speak to Amendments Nos. 86 and 88 together. There are two sections of the Factories Act which prohibit or restrict the employment of women on certain operations which involve proximity to moving parts of machinery. I will deal with these separately.
Section 15 allows only trained males of over 18 years of age to examine moving machinery and to lubricate or make adjustments where it is necessary to do this when the machinery is in motion. The males are trained in accordance with regulations.
There is a general measure of agreement on both sides of industry that a trained woman is as capable as a trained man of examining, lubricating or adjusting a machine. The Government acknowledge this and when the Bill was being considered at Report stage in another place the Government spokesman said that the Government were considering the possibility of moving Amendments in this House, which would have the effect of enabling adult men and women to be treated equally with regard to jobs that can be done safely on moving machinery and, in addition, would apply equally to adult men and women any restrictions imposed because of risk of injury. I am pleased to be able to say that as a result of the Government's examination of these provisions, I am able to move today that the word "male" be omitted from Section 15(2) of the Factories Act. This will enable regulations to be amended so as to allow women aged 18 and over who are equally qualified with men to examine, lubricate and adjust machines. I would point out that this Amendment is identical with the Amendment to the first part of Schedule 6 in the

1437
name of the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross.
I come now to the other section which is concerned with machinery; that is, Section 20 of the Factories Act. I must explain to the Committee why I am unable at this stage to move an Amendment to this section. Section 20 first of all places a total prohibition on a woman aged 18 or over, or a young person, in cleaning any part of a prime mover or of any transmission machinery while the prime mover or transmission machinery is in motion. Secondly, it provides that a woman or young person shall not clean any part of any machine—and I repeat "any machine"—if they are thereby exposed to injury from a moving part of that machine or any adjacent machine.
On the face of it, it would seem a simple matter to move an Amendment to remove the reference to women in Section 20, and thus put them on an equal footing with men. This was proposed by the Conservative Government in their Consultative Document Equal Opportunities for Men and Women, and is also proposed by the noble Viscount in his Amendment. But this would have the effect of removing the protection afforded to women instead of extending the protection to men which, as was stated in another place, was one of the objects of the Government's examination of this section, and which is also the aim of the TUC. We should be extremely cautious in removing protection from anybody if there is a danger of exposure to injury. The Government consider that there has not been enough study of the effect of this simple Amendment. Your Lordships will agree that the aim must be to reduce the risk of injury to both men and women. I must stress that the Government have no intention of removing the protection afforded to young persons by Section 20.
I come now to the second option which was open to the Government, which was a simple amendment to extend the protion to men. I can assure the Committee if this had been found technically possible under the Bill I would have been moving an Amendment today to do that, but difficulties exist and have not yet been resolved. For example, to adapt the present wording of Section 20 to apply to all persons could have had the effect of
1438
imposing a virtual prohibition on the cleaning of all moving parts of machinery throughout industry. I am advised that a moving part has been judicially interpreted as being capable of motion rather than actually in motion. The consequences to industry would be uncertain, and it is felt it would not be wise to embark upon such a course without consultation. Furthermore, in view of the inter-relationship between Section 20 and other sections of the Factories Act, it is not yet altogether clear what effect an Amendment to Section 20 would have on other sections of that Act.
I come now to the third option, which is the one most likely to be satisfactory. There should be a root and branch amendment to Section 20, which will extend the protection to men but will avoid any unfortunate circumstances and take account of any consequential amendment to other sections of the Factories Act. This will require much further study, and there is some doubt as to whether this is an appropriate Amendment for this particular Bill.
The Government spokesman in another place gave an undertaking that if it were not found technically possible to make these amendments under the Bill, the Health and Safety Commission would be requested to arrange for an early review of the provisions in question. I repeat this undertaking today in respect of Section 20. We will seek to find an acceptable way, under the health and safety legislation, of applying protection from risk of injury to both men and women. I am aware that the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, is to move an Amendment to Schedule 6 of the Bill which, in addition to providing for the amendment to Section 15(2) of the Factories Act which I am now moving, seeks to remove the references to women in Section 20. I hope that in view of my explanations of the Government's reasons for not seeking to amend Section 20 at this time the noble Viscount will feel justified in withdrawing his Amendment. I beg to move Amendment No. 86.
7.15 p.m.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS: Well, I have not moved it yet! What I will do is read in the Official Report what the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, has said. I think I ought to give him notice that I may not be entirely satisfied because I

1439
am not sure I am clear about the reasoning, on two grounds. Of course I am delighted to see the Amendment to Section 15(2), and I welcome a gesture in this Bill being sketched towards getting rid of protective measures which are no longer necessary and which in the past, for historical reasons, were there for the protection of women. If we can get rid of them in the Bill it is a step in the right direction and helps to nullify those disabilities protected under Clause 7(2)(f) which will still prevent women from taking jobs because they are protected in this way under the Factories Act.
The noble Lord said the difficulty about Section 20 of the Factories Act was that the second limb of it contains a prohibition on a woman or young person cleaning any part of any machine if the cleaning would expose that person to risk of injury. Of course nobody wishes to legislate in such a way that somebody is exposed to the risk of injury; but as the section does not protect a man at all, it does not seem to me that to remove the reference to a woman increases any danger to men. They are either covered under something else already or not covered at all. Merely to confine the wording of this section to young persons does not increase the possibility of danger to anyone. That is the first point. I am not sure I follow the reasoning which makes this impossible. I shall only be able to do so, if at all, when I read it. It was a carefully prepared speech which the noble Lord made and I will read it in the Official Report.
Much more significant is this. The noble Lord says one requires to look carefully at the whole of Section 20—and of course I understand this—in order to see what appears to be a simple repeal in order to remove an unnecessary protection based merely upon the fact that in the old days women had long hair and men did not. This is plainly no longer a sufficient reason for protection. Within my own family there are some who have longer hair than I have. If that is the reason for it let us be perfectly certain that we have the necessary powers.
All the way through the passage of this Bill in another place it was said: "Do not worry, the special protective provisions in the Factories Acts can be looked at carefully. The Equal Oppor-
1440
tunities Commission will look at them. There is power by way of regulations under the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 to make the necessary repeals by Statutory Instruments." I am sure that there is not power under that Act to rewrite Section 20 so that it causes a completely different aspect of protection in factories to be introduced. If there is a power, I should like to know where it is.
I would ask the noble Lord to be careful about this. We do not want to let this Bill go through without making sure we can remove sex discrimination. We need to make certain we do not endanger anybody. It is no use allowing the Bill to go on to the Statute Book without putting in express powers, if needed, or relying on express powers in other legislation, if they are there and are adequate, to get rid of any unnecessary protection on the grounds of sex which may eventually be discussed and decided upon by the Equal Opportunities Commission. We cannot let this 20 without further examination; otherwise, we shall have enshrined a protection for women, on grounds of their having long hair, which nobody can do anything about, and we will not even have power by regulation under the Act of last year to repeal it in such a way as to make sense in a modern context. The noble Lord, and the Department, to whom I am sure he will report what I say, ought to look at this most carefully before we let it go. I am very happy to leave it at this point today, but I cannot necessarily say that I shall not wish to return to it. Meanwhile, I very much welcome the Amendment that the noble Lord is moving.
Lord BEAUMONT of WHITLEY: I should like to support the Amendment which is shortly to be put to the Committee. I would only note, with some surprise, that it was as recently as 1961 that a discriminatory clause like this was written in, which obviously did not make very much sense at the time, even given different hair-growing publicity.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS: The noble Lord ought not to think that we are as out of date as that. It was a consolidation Act.
Lord BEAUMONT of WHITLEY: I beg the noble Viscount's pardon; but since we are taking two Amendments

1441
together, I should like to express support for the noble Viscount, Lord Colville. I listened with great interest to the very elegant argument produced by the noble Lord, Lord Jacques. In many ways it made a lot of sense; but when the Government say that the result of a long, involved and elegant argument is that they cannot do something which plainly needs to be done, they should go away and find out the way in which it can be done. That, if I may put it rather crudely, is what they are paid to do.
Lord JACQUES: Would the noble Lord excuse me? That is what we are doing. I have already said that.
Lord BEAUMONT of WHITLEY: I do not think the noble Lord has said that he can remove this discrimination which appears in Section 20 of this Act, which is the place where it should be done. It should be dealt with in this Bill, because this Bill is intended to remove discrimination against women in industry and this section in the Factories Act is one which enforces discrimination. Therefore it must be removed in this Bill and I very much hope that the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, will return to this and try to ensure that it is removed.
Lord DRUMALBYN: May I ask the noble Lord whether any restrictions in ILO Conventions are involved here?
Lord JACQUES: I do not know of any, but as I understand it this is our difficulty. So far as Clause 15(2) is concerned, it is controlled by Regulation. Only trained men over 18 years of age can do that work. They have to be trained in accordance with Regulations. What we are doing by means of the Amendment which the Committee have before them—it has not yet been carried—is to say: "Very well, that can also apply to women, but they will have to undergo the same training under the same Regulations". That refers to Clause 15(2), but when you come to Section 20 it is an entirely different situation. It is a situation which does not specify training but merely protects women.
Three options have been considered. One was to just take out "woman", which we are not prepared to do. I would ask your Lordships to bear in mind that the question of training does not come in here. The second option
1442
would be to give the same protection to men, and that is not practicable. It would cause great difficulty to industry and should not be done without consultation. The third option is to recast Section 20 of the Factories Act in such a way as to give adequate protection to both men and women, so that they may work in equality. We think that is a matter for the Health and Safety Commission, and it has been referred to them. There is no loss of faith here. We made it clear in the other place that if we found this kind of difficulty this is what would be done, and I have repeated the undertaking which was given there. When it comes to a question of protection of this kind, I do not think the matter can be dealt with by merely making men and women equal. You need to have another look at the particular section of the Factories Act, let the competent body look at it, redraft the relevant section and let it apply to both men and women.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS: I am not going to make my speech all over again, but the noble Lord has not grasped my point. Will the noble Lord tell me—not immediately, but in writing later before the Report stage—whether or not there are powers to make Statutory Instruments under the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974, which will allow him to recast Section 20 in the way that he wants? I am not prepared to allow this to go, even on the basis of his third option, without taking the necessary powers to remove discrimination in this particular area. If they are there already, the noble Lord will of course refer me to them; he will tell me where they are and I can look at them for myself. If they are not there, please will he tell me quickly so that I may put down a different Amendment so that we can have the necessary powers by Statutory Instrument under this Bill to get rid of discrimination? That is all I am asking the noble Lord to do. He need not repeat his three options. I understand his argument, but I am not prepared to let this Bill pass into law without the necessary powers to get rid of this discrimination.
Lord JACQUES: It would appear that the noble Viscount's objective is merely to speed up matters and that instead of

1443
having a Statute in order to amend Section 20, he would prefer to have a Statutory Instrument. Also, if we do not already have the powers, he will move an Amendment which will give the powers. I am sure that I should be foolish indeed if I did not say that I will certainly look at that, particularly to see whether we already have the powers.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Lord JACQUES Lord JACQUES moved Amendment No. 87:
Page 66, line 29, at end insert—
(" The Registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages (Scotland) Act 1965 (c. 49)
In section 21(6) for the word "woman" there shall be substituted the word "person".").
The noble Lord said: This is a minor technical Amendment to Schedule 5, which provides for consequential amendments to existing legislation. Clause 20 of the Bill removes the statutory prohibitions on a man becoming a midwife, by providing that references to "women" in the Midwives Act 1951 and the Midwives (Scotland) Act 1951 should apply equally to men. The Amendment to Schedule 5 will extend this provision to cover Section 21(6) of the Registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages (Scotland) Act 1965, which at present defines a certified midwife as, "… a woman certified under the Midwives (Scotland) Act." I invite your Lordships to approve this Amendment. I beg to move.
Viscount COLVILLE of CULROSS: Of course, I can express approval only provisionally, because I am still waiting for the answer which I am to be given about the whole question of midwives, to which we shall return on Report stage. It is plainly right that we should have this Schedule brought into line, so that any necessary amendments are there in the Bill. But I do not think it necessarily follows that by accepting this Amendment today my noble friends, or anybody else who is interested in the subject, will necessarily forgo the opportunity to talk about midwives again. However, I think this is the last Amendment at Committee stage, unless something turns up on the Title of the Bill. So I hope I can end on a happy note by saying that I am glad to accept this Amendment for the moment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 5, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining Schedule agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported with the Amendments.

CHILD BENEFIT BILL
7.30 p.m.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. The noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, said he would like to end on a happy note. I should now like to begin on a happy note by saying how delighted we are to see the noble Baroness, Lady Elles, on the Front Bench opposite. She will not misunderstand me if I say that we have had ample opportunity to see her in action on the Back Benches. We have warmly welcomed the standard of the contribution which she has made, and in some respects I feel happy but also a little apprehensive in having her as what will be a quite formidable opponent. But we are delighted to see her and I am sure that her own side are comforted in the fact that they have her on the Front Bench.
It was only yesterday that we finished the Report stage of the Social Security Pensions Bill. I say this because it is perhaps reasonable that I should point out that this was a pledge which we on this side gave in our Manifesto. The second pledge which we gave, and which we were very concerned about, was that we would endeavour to attack family poverty by increasing family allowances and extending them to the first child through a new scheme of family credits payable to the mother. This is, we hope, the fulfilment of that second pledge. Noble Lords will be aware that this Bill is one whose principles are—I emphasise that I am speaking about principles now—supported by all the major Parties. The idea of paying a tax free family allowance in place of child tax allowances and a family allowance which is taxed has been envisaged for many years by social security experts of all political colours. It was shaped into a definite form as part of the tax credit scheme proposed by the previous Administration.
Those proposals, in so far as they affected children, were consistent with the

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existing Labour Party policy. But it can fairly be claimed that the child benefit scheme which the Bill seeks to introduce is directly related to the child credit which the previous Administration had in mind to introduce. I am happy to acknowledge this fact. I hope it is evidence that I am trying to establish the best possible relationship with the noble Baroness opposite, so that not only to-night but in the future we have a happy working relationship.
I do not propose to dwell for very long on this subject, because I imagine that if there is anything between us we shall use the appropriate stages allowed in your Lordships' House to introduce some points and to put others right. Before taking your Lordships briefly through the principal provisions of the Bill, it might be helpful if I outlined the major objectives which it seeks to achieve. First, child benefit will be paid for every single child in the family. Thus, it will extend the benefit of a cash payment to the first child in something like 4½ million families as well as to about 3 million single child families. This reform will undoubtedly be generally welcomed and will bring us into line with the practice in many of the most advanced countries in Western Europe and elsewhere.
There is a second and socially equally important objective
which will be achieved. Poorer families who have not been able to take advantage of the child tax allowances in full, if at all, because of their low incomes, will in future be able to do so as the new benefit progressively extends the cash advantage of the allowances to all the families that I have mentioned. Their number will depend upon tax thresholds at the time the scheme is introduced in April 1977. Your Lordships may like to know, as an indication, that there are at present something like 150,000 families with upwards of 300,000 children who are below the tax threshold, and not on either supplementary benefit or family income supplement.
To turn to the content of the Bill itself, I think it necessary to give only a short resumé since, unlike some other social security legislation, the Child Benefit Bill is reasonably intelligible to the non-expert. The substance of the new child benefit scheme lies in the first five clauses. Clause 1 provides for child
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benefit to be paid to a person for any child for whom he is responsible out of monies provided by Parliament, and also for the payment of family allowances to cease. These provisions are in the first five clauses. Clause 2 defines a child as a person under 16 years of age or one between the ages of 16 and 19 years who is undergoing full-time education. Clause 3 defines just who it is who shall be treated as responsible for the child. This can either be the person with whom the child is living, or someone else who is contributing to the upkeep of the child at a weekly rate—this is important—which is at least equivalent to the rate of child benefit. Your Lordships will be interested to know that priority of title to child benefit will always belong to the person with whom the child is living, and where a child is living with both parents the mother will have priority over the father.
Clause 4 enables regulations to prescribe the circumstances in which child benefit will not be payable in respect of children aged between 16 and 19 years who are in full-time education. This is to deal with certain possible developments in the field of student support. Clause 5 provides that child benefit is to be paid at such weekly rates as may be prescribed. As a result of Amendments made in another place, the Bill differs from that originally introduced in that it now specifies that different rates shall be prescribed in relation to different cases from a day to be appointed. It is our intention to introduce benefit at a flat rate at the outset some time in April 1977, but then later to develop the scheme by means of varying rates according to such criteria as may be chosen—for example, the age of the children is one, but there are other factors which we shall need to consider carefully between now and 1979, the earliest date when it would be technically possible to make such variations.
The clause also provides that the Secretary of State shall each year examine the rates of child benefit to see whether they should be uprated. This is a considerable advance over what has gone before, since neither family allowances nor child tax allowances are statutorily subject to any such regular reappraisal. And any uprating can be carried out by
Affirmative Regulations, which again is an improvement over
the existing position where principal legislation is required.

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The following batch of clauses, Clauses 6 to 12, provide the administrative framework for child benefit and deal with such things as claims, payment and offences. Most of this is common form to social security benefits in general and I need not dwell at length on this matter.
Having set out the structure of child benefit and how it is to be administered, the next group of clauses, Clauses 13 to
15, cover the residence requirements and reciprocal agreements with Northern Ireland and other countries. The general rule will be that no person will be entitled to receive child benefit unless the child in question and one of his parents has been in Great Britain for more than 182 days of the preceding 52 weeks, and that no person will be entitled to receive child benefit for any week unless he is in Great Britain during that week and has been in Great Britain for more than 182 days in the preceding 52 weeks; in other words, six months in the year. There is power by regulations to make exceptions in appropriate cases.
May I say a word or two about child interim benefit? In Part II of the Bill, Clauses 16 to 18, we come to three important items. First, in Clause 16 is contained the full provision for the interim benefit and its administration. This benefit, which will be introduced in April 1976, will have the same effect for one-parent families as if a family allowance was payable for the first child. It is to be taken fully into account for supplementary benefit purposes, and will be paid at the same rate as that running for family allowance, which is £1·50 at the present time. It will be subject to tax in the same way as family allowance but it is an interim benefit. The benefit is purely a temporary one—the means of doing something quickly for this group of people, rather than leaving them to wait until 1977 when the general child benefit scheme is introduced and when the interim benefit will then be absorbed within the main scheme.
The next clause, Clause 17, makes provision whereby benefits and increases in benefits in respect of children under the Social Security Act 1975 may be reduced to take account of the introduction of child benefit, and of any subsequent increases in the rate of child benefit. This continues the long-standing practice
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whereby dependency benefits—paid, for instance, with sickness, unemployment and invalidity benefit—are set at a rate which takes account of the existence of family allowance so that together the payments provide a standard maintenance income for the child. Finally within this group, Clause 18 provides for the repeal of paragraph 2 of Schedule 2 to the Supplementary Benefit Act 1966. This abolishes the wage-stop. There are now only some 5,000 of the poorest families affected by this provision, but none the less this is a change which I am sure all your Lordships will welcome.
The remainder of the Bill covers the transitional and financial provisions. On the latter, until a rate of benefit is settled, it is not possible to give any figures, save for two minor items. Interim benefit is expected to cost about £21 million before taxation—£10½ million taking income tax into account—during the year for which it runs, together with an administrative charge of £1½ million. The abolition of the wage-stop is unlikely to cost more than £100,000 in a full year.
This brings me to two major issues which were the subject of considerable debate in another place, and on which I think I should say a word at this stage, if I am not pre-empting the noble Baroness; namely, that the Bill contains no actual rates of child benefit and that it will not be possible to introduce the child benefit scheme until 1977. We are alive to this; the two issues are linked. This is essentially a structural Bill. Because this must be so, there was an attempt in another place to cast doubt on the Government's intentions to create a worthwhile scheme. I hope that there will be no serious attempt to cast doubt on it in your Lordships' House, because any such attempts honestly rest on a false premise. It is vital to get the structure for the future development of family benefit right, and we have to settle the structure now in order to get the operational machinery completed. This is far too early to decide the rates for a benefit which is not due to come into operation until 1977. Consequently, the Government say that the rates cannot be written into the Bill. As the Chancellor of the Exchequer said in his Budget Statement, it will be necessary to accommodate the cost of the new scheme within the limits which, in the light of future Government commitments, can

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be devoted to public expenditure at large in the years beyond 1976 and 1977.
It would, however, no doubt be of help to your Lordships in getting an idea of the sums involved if I repeated the illustrative costing which the Secretary of State gave on Second Reading in another place. A child benefit rate, introduced now, which would involve no extra cost to the Exchequer, would be £1.94 a week. This purely illustrative rate assumed that the child tax allowance of £240 a year for children under 11 is the rate that is replaced, and that the extra allowances for children over 11 are retained as residual tax allowances. Under this nil cost formula, the poorest families below the tax threshold and not already on social security benefit would gain the full £1·94 for the first child and 44p for each other child. As an indication of the rate at which costs increase thereafter—it is important to take this into account—every extra 1p on this rate of £1·94 would involve a net cost to the Exchequer of £6½ million a year. Your Lordships must bear in mind—I am speaking now off-the-cuff—that we are dealing with something like 14½ million children and, as I say, a penny a week on that rate of £1·94 would cost an extra £6½ million a year.
I want to say something about the starting date, because I realise how some noble Lords will feel about this. I said that because this scheme is not being introduced until 1977 nothing more than such an illustrative costing can be given, but I am sure noble Lords will expect me to say a few words about the fact that it has not proved possible to introduce the benefit, as we had hoped, in April 1976. To prepare for the take-on of the 3 million singleton families, we need a building large enough to house 2,200 staff situated near Newcastle Central Office where all family allowance work is done and where the family allowance expertise exists. New buildings in the Washington New Town were commissioned by the Property Services Agency to be ready for occupation by the staff in July 1975; and against the possibility of delay in the building programme fall-back arrangements were made to use, on a temporary basis, another large building already under construction in Washington by the Property Services Agency for other purposes. By March 1974 is was clear that the programme on the purpose-built
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accommodation had slipped and it was necessary to rely on the fall-back arrangements. That building became our mainstay for the take-on operation.
Then, last autumn, it was learned that high alumina cement had been used for some components in its construction, and work had virtually to stop while the need for precautionary measures was considered. This delay ruled out the use of our fall-back building for the 1976 start. There were no other buildings in the Newcastle locality which were suitable and which could be made ready for use for April 1976. Once the April 1976 date had been lost we had to wait for another complete tax year. This is because the introduction of child benefit is inextricably linked with the commencement of the progressive withdrawal of income tax child allowances—a matter, of course, for a Finance Bill. It is not practicable, both for policy and operational reasons, for the Inland Revenue to withdraw these allowances other than from the beginning of an income tax year.
I hope I have been able to give your Lordships a sufficiently general account of the Bill and its contents. It was only intended to be general and its purpose was to enable us to have an informed debate. Therefore, my Lords, I conclude by commending the Bill to your Lordships' House, and I beg to move that it be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a. —(Lord Wells-Pestell).
7.51 p.m.
Baroness ELLES: My Lords, first, may I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, for his very kind words. Whatever I may say against him in the future he will know that it is never against him personally, and I shall look forward to working in co-operation with him, and indeed with other noble Lords. But he will know, like me, because we have both worked with poor families for many years, that one of the most immoral examples in our society is that there are children who are poor and who are being underfed. I will not go at length into the question of child poverty, because I know it is a subject on which we both agree, and therefore my comments are made bearing in mind that there are children who are being underfed, who

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today are being undernourished and who are being neglected in the United Kingdom, in what is one of the most highly developed industrial countries in the world, and I think we must look at this question against that background.
First, on behalf of these Benches I wish to welcome the principles established in the Child Benefit Bill. As the Minister has said, the principles were established already in the proposals for a tax credit system which was put forward by a previous Conservative Government, and he will also know that the idea of a payment for the first child has been the major concern of nearly all social welfare workers. When we from the Women's National Conservative Association gave evidence to the Finer Committee, we strongly recommended that one of the best, quickest, safest and most secure ways of relieving immediate poverty for families was to give a cash benefit for the first child. So we approve and endorse that principle which is established in the Bill. Of course we also support the principle that the cash benefit should be paid to the mother as the person responsible for buying the household necessities on a day-to-day basis. The noble Lord did not confirm—and I should be glad if he would—that the child benefit will be tax free and that it will not be aggregated to the income of either parent.
However, what does disturb us—and I know that the noble Lord has already raised this point—is the time factor of when this money is going to be paid. He has said that there are 300,000 children (I think that is the figure) in families who are below the tax threshold and who do not draw supplementary benefit. Is he really prepared to say that these children are not to get any help for two years because of a slip-up in a building programme near Newcastle? Does he really think that a Party which claims to put social justice
above every other principle should think that that number of children in this country should be left with no financial support of any kind from the Government? Therefore, I must ask the Minister whether he considers that the Government have their priorities right—a Government who can spend £1,000 million on a National Enterprise Board to take over companies,
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who can spend £4,000 million on community land, yet can delay the payment to 300,000 children in order that they might be able to eat. I should have thought that this was a disgrace that the Government should not have to face.
With regard to food prices, perhaps the Minister will bear in mind that when we had 90p family allowances the average wage was about £23 a week and the average cost of food was £2·19 for the poorest family. The average cost of food per week now is £2·89. I have taken the official figures for October 1974. Yet the family allowance has gone up by only 60p. It has not gone up enough to pay for even the minimum weekly food bill per head for the poorest families in the country. Yet we manage to have an average industrial wage now of over £56 a week. I think we must look at this problem in relation to the figures that we are seeing every day in the newspapers.
I would also suggest to noble Lords that very much more should be done about equal pay for women, because surely it is the mothers who must have the money in their pockets. There are at least 3 million working mothers with children who, if they had even £1·50 increase in their salaries to make them nearer the standard average wage would be able to benefit from this extra money to spend on their children. At the moment, the average wage for a woman is £27 as opposed to about £48 for a man, so there is a great margin which the Government can do something about earlier than 1977, the date on which their computer will be working.
I should like now to look at some of the details in the Bill, and I should be grateful if the noble Lord could comment on one or two problems which are of concern to us on this side of the House. The first problem I should like to refer to is the question of definition of a child under Clause 2(1)(b). The fact that a child must be under the age of 19 and receiving full-time education, I think will be very detrimental to apprentices. I know that there are apparently very few at the moment who are affected by the removal of child benefit, but this problem must be looked at in the context of enormously increasing youth unemployment. Surely one of the best ways of saving children from lounging about the

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streets and having no job is to encourage firms to take them on as apprentices, even at low wages. The children would get the child benefit, but their parents would lose the child tax allowance, because as I understand it that is going to be gradually withdrawn as it is replaced by a child benefit.
Further, of course, if a child is over 19 and is receiving full-time education, he will be no longer eligible for the family allowance, and the parents will be no longer eligible, as I understand it, for the child tax allowance. The families who send children for further education, and particularly the poorest families, are surely the ones who will suffer most because they have to make the greatest sacrifices in order that their children shall carry on with their education rather than taking a job. Would the Minister look at this point to see whether he can make a more satisfactory proposal to cover these poorer families who will lose the child tax allowance, but who still have to provide for and help their children when during holiday times they come back from universities or from courses of education, or whatever it may be? These families also have to help their children while they are receiving their education during term time. As we all know, the minute you take away a benefit of any kind it is always the poorest families who suffer. I think this matter should be looked at again.
My Lords, I would also ask the noble Lord the Minister for further particulars on the question of which children shall be eligible. I know there are certain regulations as to how much time they should spend in this country. Can the noble Lord say whether the children of immigrants will be covered
by the Child Benefit Bill? I would refer to the problems which have arisen in Germany where, as the noble Lord will know, the new family allowance for children was introduced last year. The family allowance was to be given only for children in Germany. This created the situation where literally thousands of migrant workers brought their children into the country in order to benefit from the child allowance, and, in turn, this created housing and other social problems. Therefore, it was decided that it was easier to accept that children living outside the EEC should also have the benefit of the child allowance. I am speaking to the case
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of Germany, not of the EEC regulations as a whole. The result was that in the country of which I am specifically thinking, suddenly a very large number of of children became the children of the immigrant workers by adoption or fostering. This in its turn created an escalation in costs. This might be worth looking into concerning satisfactory definition. We must also bear in mind that if the child tax allowance is removed from immigrant workers working in this country, they would suffer financial hardship and loss. Can the Minister give some indication of his thinking on this matter?
I should like to ask the Minister in connection with Clause 3(1)(a) which refers to "the child living with him in that week", whether he can assure the House that a mother drawing maintenance for a child would nevertheless continue to draw child benefit and that, though the father is contributing to the cost of maintaining the child, the mother would be able to have the benefit of this new social security. I am sure this will be of great concern to many women on their own who have children, if they cannot carry on drawing a family allowance or the new child benefit. I should be most grateful for the Minister's comments on this.
Can the Minister also tell us about the different rates which shall be prescribed? In our evidence to Finer given in 1971, we drew up a scale of payments based on our experience as mothers, of knowing how families work and of expenses, whereby the first child would receive £1.—we must remember it was 1970 when we made this scale—the second child aged over 5 received more, and over the age of 11 more still. The sums were graduated by relation in the
family, that the first child should have more, the second child slightly less and the third child slightly less, on the grounds that a first child always costs more. Both these principles are recognised in various forms of social benefits, either in supplementary benefit or perhaps National Insurance benefit. I would hope that the Minister will look at this to see whether some kind of scale can be worked out whereby both these principles are taken into account.
Again I must say that we on this side of the House find it difficult to accept that a computer is not able to work out

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these scales, or whatever scale is decided, until 1979. The bank system of personalised cheques shows that if you were to ask a bank to open an account for you and they said you could not have a cheque book for four years, they would lose a great many clients, especially as it would be based on immutable data which, in this case, is the date of birth. Can the Minister find his way to seeing whether the administrative difficulties, of which I know he is aware, can be overcome for the benefit of the thousands of children who at present are undernourished and desperately in need of help?
On the other hand, having made our comments about what we find wrong with the Bill and on why we are disturbed on this side of the House, we welcome certain measures taken in the Bill, particularly the introduction as from April 1976 of the interim benefit for one-parent families. As the noble Lord the Minister will know and confirm, there must be now at least 1 million one-parent families. According to the 1971 figures, there were 620,000 families and the average number of children involved in divorces over the years is about 80,000 each year. I checked these figures in the latest statistics available. Nevertheless, it is with regret that we note that this particular help will not be of assistance to the poorest families—that is, those drawing supplementary benefit—because of the disregard. I understand that the £1·50 paid to the first child of those families who draw supplementary benefit will mean that they will have their supplementary benefit reduced accordingly. I wonder whether the noble Lord could look into this and make some comments for our benefit. It seems to me that if an interim benefit is to be brought in to help poor families, it should be made to help them and should not work against them.
My Lords, another point on which the noble Lord might enlarge is the number of civil servants who will be needed to implement these schemes. I read with care the Second Reading debate in another place. I understand that about 3,500 extra civil servants will be needed to implement the plan. I must confess that this caused me some dismay when I remembered reading in the proposals
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for a tax credit scheme, at paragraph 123:
" A system of tax credits would simplify the tax system and its administration saving many thousands of Civil Service posts."
As I presume both schemes must have been written to some extent by civil servants, perhaps we could have clarification on this particular point. Will the system need thousands of extra civil servants, or will it in the end save thousands of Civil Service posts?
In conclusion, we accept the Bill and its principles but, of course, we are concerned with the fact that it is to be delayed for so long. We know that there are thousands of families drawing FIS, but the level is higher than the tax threshold, so many FIS families pay income tax under the new rate of personal allowances. Because the number of families drawing FIS is dropping, as I understand it, I implore the noble Lord the Minister to take some measures to advertise the fact that there is the benefit of the family income supplement. We all know that with means tested benefits, unless people are aware they can get them they will not have them. It is as simple as that. Advertisements have to be displayed in areas where the need is greatest, where people likely to need FIS will be able to see them. They should be in legible and easy form. I again refer to the document in which we published our evidence to Finer, Unhappy Families, published in 1971:
" Better publicity is needed to inform the public of the welfare services availab1e."
This is the only way these people will be able to survive until the Government in 1977, or indeed in some other cases 1979, bring in their child benefit. We on these Benches look forward to that time, knowing that this child benefit will be able actually to help those who need it so greatly now.
8.11 p.m.
Baroness SEEAR: My Lords, it has been a long day and I do not intend to detain your Lordships' House for very long. Of course, we on the Liberal Benches—those of us who are here and those of us who are not—give the warmest welcome to this new policy of the Government, which has adopted measures which we in our Party have urged for

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a very long time indeed. Family allowance for the first child has been an item of Liberal policy for as long as I can remember and we are very glad indeed to see it brought into force; or at least the commitment to bring it into force. I should particularly like to emphasise just how important is the additional payment for the first child.
Studies in this field are underscoring, even more than in past years, just what a break in the life of the woman and the family occurs at the birth of the first child. You have the situation where there had been two earners and then, in a great many cases, with the advent of the child the family income drops. There is a growing amount of evidence that this is a very crucial moment in the life of the family, and that additional support to the family and the woman when the first child arrives is particularly needed. It has been an extraordinary blindness to what is a very obvious consideration that has restricted family allowance in the past to the second and subsequent children. The need was so palpably great at the financial and psychological levels when the first child arrived.
We are also very glad indeed to see that there is to be some recognition and adoption of the recommendations of the Finer Report in giving assistance to the single parent family. I think there is no difference between all Parties on these matters, and I welcome that innovation. I should also like to say that we are very glad indeed, having been active early about the idea of a tax credit scheme, to see that the Government are moving tardily and partially in this direction. In the view of the Liberal Party, the tax credit scheme is probably the most creative idea in policy since the days of the Beveridge Report. It was the greatest mistake, in our view, that the Government apparently, for reasons we never understood, saw fit to bury the idea of tax credits when they returned to Office in 1974. If this new child benefit means that the Government have rediscovered the benefits of this extremely creative new policy, then this is the beginning of a very welcome change in the handling of social policy.
Having said that, I would echo very strongly the regret that it is impossible to bring in child benefit for the first child until 1977. I am afraid I was totally
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unconvinced by the Minister's explanation that failure with building programmes and problems of this kind have held up the introduction of what all recognise as the most necessary innovaaion. I simply cannot believe that an efficient Administration, recognising how urgent this issue is and determining that something should be done about it, could not have found a way to see that the payments started to be made in 1976.
There has been pressure on the Government to do this for years, and the acceptance of the fact that obstacles of this kind are an adequate explanation of why a plan, which we are now told was intended to be introduced in 1976, is calmly to be delayed for 12 months is a real and serious criticism of the calibre of administration in this country. Any go-ahead enterprise would have found a way of getting around this difficulty and it is lamentable that a Government, who are forever preaching to the private sector to get on and be more efficient, confronted with an obstacle of this kind just withdrew and said, "We will delay the delivery date for 12 months". I suggest that the National Enterprise Board ought to look at the way in which these matters are handled.
I also feel it is quite extraordinary that something could not be done about this problem of the first children in families before the Child Benefit Act comes into force, if it has to be delayed. We have been told in the last week that the Government are to pay another £150 million into food subsidies and rent support. This will go, as previous food subsidies and rent supports have gone, to help people who are well able to pay the additional prices for food, to families where there are two and sometimes three wage-earners, grown-up families in rent supported houses. And yet the Government see fit to direct £150 million into this old and wasteful channel rather than taking that money and using it where it is urgently needed, where there are young children to feed and house.
However, with those two very strong criticisms of lack of urgency in dealing with the matter, and lack of courage in using our resources in the best possible way—my goodness me, at a time when resources are as short as they are, to allow them to be diverted away from areas of high necessity into areas of very

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marginal necessity is surely an indictment of Government social policy—we are very glad that, belatedly, the Government are moving in this direction.
8.18 p.m.
Baroness VICKERS: My Lords, I did not put my name down to speak, because I thought I would wait to see whether all the points I was interested in had been covered—and most of them have been—by the two previous speakers. But I could not let this debate go by without congratulating my noble friend Lady Elles on her very eloquent speech. We are delighted to see that she is on the Front Bench. From what she said, it is obvious that the knowledge she has gained from her work in Europe has been an asset to her in discussing this Bill.
I should like to say how much I welcome the cessation of the wage stop, and to ask whether this could be brought forward. This is one of the worst means tests there are. I believe there are about 40 means tests still in existence, but I have always thought the wage stop was one of the cruellest. I should like to ask about Clause 15 which deals with reciprocal agreements. There are the EEC, Australia, Austria, Canada, Spain, Norway, New Zealand, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland and Yugoslavia with whom we have reciprocal agreements. I know that in France and Holland the allowances are very much higher than they are here. I should like to know exactly what "reciprocal" means in this case. When somebody goes to live in France or Holland, they get the family allowances of that country. If a French person comes to live here, does he have to come down to our very much lower family allowance, which will interfere with his standard of living? I understood that "reciprocal" meant "in return and mutual", expressing mutual relations. I do not know whether the noble Lord can reply today, but I think it is very important.
Finally, Clause 16 says on cohabitation,
" Subject to the provisions of this section, a person who is the parent of one or more children shall be entitled to a benefit under this section for any week in the interim period in which …
(c) he is not cohabiting with any other person as his spouse."
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I know quite a lot of people who are cohabiting, and both the man and the woman have children. Perhaps the man is a widower and looking after his children entirely. Does he get it even if he is cohabiting with another woman as his spouse? If the noble Lord cannot reply today I should be very grateful if he would look at the points I have raised.
I should like to add my congratulations to him on his excellent explanation of the Bill. As the noble Baroness, Lady Elles, said, I am sure that we shall do our best to co-operate to see whether we can get this Bill through—it is not much good my saying "very quickly", because it will not come into operation for such a long time, but I should like to see it on the Statute Book. Perhaps when the economic situation is better, and the Government get over the difficulties which have been outlined, we will be able to get the Bill onto the Statute Book and get action taken.
8.21 p.m.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I do not think for one moment that I have been able to take everything on board. The noble Baroness has certainly established herself as a sharpshooter. I have tried to make a note of everything. I will go through Hansard rather carefully and if I have missed anything I will endeavour—I say "endeavour", because I have written so many letters of late—to give the answers. I can say that the wage-stop ends this month; it finishes on 23rd July. In many ways I think we are in agreement with the noble Baroness, Lady Seear. We take no comfort in the fact that we cannot bring this in sooner. What I have said is quite sincere, in the sense that we have been, and are being, severely handicapped on the question of space. This is something which we did not foresee. Many of us, including myself, have suffered because of high alumina cement and it certainly presents a tremendous problem.
I cannot remember who raised the question of staff, but my understanding of the situation is that something like 3.500 temporary staff will be needed in the Department of Health and Social Security during the year preceding the start of the scheme. Thereafter, the permanent addition to staff to deal with the

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servicing of the awards and claims will be about 1,300.
Baroness ELLES: My Lords, would the Minister kindly explain whether the extra staff will be for the DHSS and the reduction in staff will be for the Treasury, or was paragraph 112 in the proposal for the tax credit scheme wrong?
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I was coming to that. It will be what the DHSS needs. Strangely enough, I think I am right in saying that the Inland Revenue will be able to save something like 1,300 staff, so the two will cancel each other out. This came out in a reply, which I shall not read, by Mr. Robert Sheldon to a Question which was asked in another place. I hope that will
be a sufficient answer for the noble Baroness. The child benefit, as I thought I said but obviously did not make clear, will be a cash benefit and tax free. The child tax allowances for children over 19 will continue until such time as other arrangements are made for student support. In my opening speech, I said that there is an inquiry into a possible scheme of student support, but until that has been resolved the child tax allowances will continue. I should think that would meet the point raised by the noble Baroness.
Baroness ELLES: My Lords, would the Minister confirm that this support will be not only for the student but for the parents? This is the point I was trying to make, that the loss of the child tax allowance would hit the parents, and I wondered whether the student support envisaged would cover that point.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: I understand it continues beyond the age of 19, so that the answer must be, Yes. I should like to come back to the question of the 300,000 children who will get no help until 1977 and whose families are below the tax level. I shall probably not give the noble Baroness a satisfactory answer, or at least one that she will accept. The Government have increased the family allowance to £1·50. It was introduced in 1968, was not raised by a single penny between 1970 and 1974, and was as necessary then as it is now. I know that this is a very debatable point and I shall not cam, the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, with me. We have increased food sub-
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sidies considerably, and it is a matter of opinion as to whether or not these are desirable or whether the money could be used in a better way. The children in one-parent families will get an extra £1·50 per week in April 1976 when the child benefit comes into being. It may well be that the sum total of all these measures may not do as much as some people would like, but I think it is probably as much as we can do at the present moment.
I was asked, I think by the noble Baroness, Lady Elles, whether the child benefit would continue for mothers drawing maintenance for children. The answer is, "Yes". The parent with whom the child is living will always have a priority to child benefit. I am sorry if I did not make that clear. A child may not necessarily be living with the mother, but possibly with an aunt or a grandmother. Notwithstanding any amount she may be getting from other sources for the support of the child, she will be entitled to the child benefit. If the person who is maintaining the child is contributing less than what the child benefit will be, he or she would not be able to claim the child benefit over and above the person who has the child. The fact is that the person who has the child will benefit.
May I deal quickly with the question of immigrants. In our view it would be wrong to bring non-resident children into the scheme, so that people living and working here and whose children are living abroad will not be included. I am not quite sure whether this is the point which the noble Baroness is raising. Obviously, children living in this country who fulfil the conditions will be included, but the non-resident children of people living in this country will not be incorporated in the scheme.
The question was asked: why no disregard of the interim benefit or supplementary benefit? Briefly, the child benefit is being treated in the same way as family allowance. It is generally accepted that the primary role of supplementary benefits in the social security framework is to assist those whose requirements exceed the amount which they received by way of non-means-tested benefits like National Insurance benefit, pensions and family allowance. These benefits are not, therefore, disregarded, and it is logical that the interim benefit which is akin to family

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allowance should be treated in the same way.
The Government attach importance to reducing the dependence of people on means-tested benefits and no progress will be made if each time a universal benefit is introduced or an existing benefit is increased, that benefit is disregarded in the means test. We must recognise that we are faced with certain difficulties and at the moment in our view there is no other way of dealing with the matter.
I am not sure that I have taken on board all the questions that were asked, but if any useful purpose will be served, perhaps I may be permitted to write to the noble Baroness after I have read the Official Report of their remarks. I hope, however, that I have dealt with the major points.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

BRITISH RAILWAYS (No. 2) BILL
The Chairman of Committees informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn. The Order made on the 17th of June last discharged, and Bill committed to the Committee on Unopposed Bills.
BRITISH WATERWAYS BILL
Reported with Amendments.