HL Deb 15 July 1975 vol 362 cc1103-7
Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what percentage of oversales or overbooking is regarded as essential by British Airways; whether this applies to all types of flight and, if not, which are exempt; how many passengers have missed their flight thereby in the past 12 months; and whether such a policy is acceptable from a nationalised undertaking; and if they will make a Statement.

Lord JACQUES

My Lords, since leave to appeal to your Lordships' House has been granted in a case relating to this Question, I must confine myself to matters of fact. I understand that the Chairman of British Airways has written to my noble friend and that the following is the information which she seeks. Overbooking operates to some degree on all British Airways' scheduled flights. The degree is variable being dependent on many factors. The Overseas Division figure for 1974–75 for passengers offloaded was 148 or about 0.01 per cent. The percentage for the European Division was about 0.05 per cent. but this includes also passengers refused carriage for any reason, including, for example, agents' and reservations errors. British Airways point out the frequency of European flights is such that most passengers who are refused carriage are enabled to travel by other flights within a short time.

Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY

My Lords, while disagreeing completely that my Question, dealing with general matters, can in any way be sub judice, may I ask whether the Minister could comment on this point so that we can ascertain the Government's feelings? Is the Minister aware that British Airways are now computerised throughout and that any computer booking system can asterisk, on any list, passengers who have paid in advance? In view of the fact that nationalised industries have a special responsibility to consider the public interest, would the Government recommend that this be done and that passengers who have paid in advance have priority?

Lord JACQUES

My Lords, I shall be pleased to pass on that suggestion.

Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY

My Lords, I thank my noble friend. I regard that as progress. I hope that my noble friend may be able to report good progress; but may I ask, with regard to the percentage figures that he gave us for British Airways European Division, whether he could give us the actual numbers?

Lord JACQUES

My Lords, I regret that there is some difficulty in getting the actual number of "no-shows", because other things are included in the figures available; but it is quite clear that the magnitude is pretty small.

Lord SLATER

My Lords, would the Minister say how it comes about that he is called upon to answer Questions in this place on behalf of a nationalised undertaking when it is they who are responsible for day-to-day administration and not the Government? It would be well to have this information, because it does not operate in another place.

Lord JACQUES

My Lords, the information that I have given was something which the Government thought in the circumstances could be given.

Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY

My Lords, might I, through my noble friend, ask whether it is not correct that this is not day-to-day information, but a matter of annual figures? Secondly, I wonder whether my noble friend does not think it strange that these computers are unable to give us a figure for the past 12 months. Can he ask British Airways whether the computers will be able to provide annual figures in future?

Lord JACQUES

My Lords, the figures that I have given are annual. The only difficulty is in the case of the European Division where the figures include not only "no shows" but errors by agents and reservations. Whether it is worth while making a division of that figure I am not in a position to know, for I do not manage British Airways.

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the majority of domestic carriers in the US are required to compensate overbooked passengers on a punitive scale? Do the Government have a view about whether this is desirable in this country?

Lord SHEPHERD

My Lords, I would suggest that that supplementary question is taking us a little close to sub judice matters and to matters which are before this House. I should have thought that in the light of the situation any questions on this matter should be of a factual nature eliciting information and not opinion and comment.

Lord DOUGLAS of BARLOCH

My Lords, would my noble friend say whether any intimation is given to persons who purchase airways tickets that they may not be able to go on the flight they booked for; and, if so, what is the nature of that information?

Lord JACQUES

My Lords, I am unable to answer that question.

Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY

My Lords, on the question of eliciting information, can the Minister tell the House whether, if all scheduled flights are subject to overbooking, this should not be mentioned in advertisements encouraging people to book?

Lord SHEPHERD

My Lords, if I may say so, I think the Minister is being put in a very awkward situation in having to reply on behalf of a nationalised industry on such very detailed matters. These are matters which clearly cannot be within the Minister's competence; neither would it be possible, I suggest, for the Minister fully to grasp them in preparing for these questions. The noble Baroness is a member of a very important committee. Much of the information she is asking for, I have no doubt she has already got. I suggest that one must recognise the limitations on Ministers in answering questions of this particular type.

Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY

My Lords, in answer to the noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal, I am a member of a committee. I have not got the information for which I have asked. It is extremely difficult to get it. Might I ask whether he would not agree that it is of no use setting up consumer councils if consumers cannot get information—and that if we cannot get it in this House, what possible chance has the ordinary person of getting it?

Lord SHEPHERD

My Lords, if the noble Baroness as a member of a consumers' committee tells me that she is not able to get this sort of information—information which I should have thought a consumers' committee would be expected to have—then if she tells me why she cannot get the information I will see what I can do about it.

Lord BYERS

My Lords, surely this is not the point. The point is that the whole House is interested in this matter and is entitled to have that information. May I ask the noble Lord whether he realises that the noble Baroness usually wins her cases and ought not the Government to take more notice?

Lord SHEPHERD

My Lords, I am prepared to take notice of what the noble Baroness was after. What I was seeking to establish—and I thought I had the sense of the House with me—was that it is very difficult for a Minister to come to this Box and answer supplementary questions about matters of so much detail concerned with the everyday running of a company. I have said to the noble Baroness that if she cannot get this information as a member of the committee, I will see what I can do to help her.