§ Earl COWLEYMy Lords, I beg, leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government—
- (a) the total amount of British aid being given to nationalist movements in Southern Africa;
- (b) which nationalist movements are in receipt of this aid; and
- (c) what categories of aid are involved.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, in furtherance of our policy in giving support to liberation movements for peaceful purposes, we have made available £20,000 to the United Nations Save the Children Fund for help through liberation movements to women and children refugees from Namibia. We have also told SWAPO that scholarships and other educational assistance up to a total of £35,000 will be made available to Namibians. Apart from the liberation movements as such, we have made a contribution of £70.000 to the United Nations educational training programme for Southern Africa, by which Namibians and others can benefit. We have given £10,000 for the United Nations Fund for Namibia, again for training for independence responsibilities, and £5,000 to a special United Nations fund to be used for the establishment of the Institute of Namibia.
§ Earl COWLEYMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that extremely full Answer, may I ask him to say what steps the Government take to ensure that these funds are used for humanitarian and peaceful purposes? Does he not recognise that the giving of such funds also releases other funds which can be used for non-peaceful and non-humanitarian purposes?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, to answer the second part of that supplementary question first, no doubt that is always possible, but we take very great care to impress on recipients that these grants are always for peaceful, educational and training purposes. On the first point, the noble Earl rightly asks whether we are taking every possible step to see that the purposes for which these grants are made are in fact the only ones. I can assure him that this is so. The grants are made through the agency of the Ministry of Overseas Development, through, in practically every instance, recognised United Nations organisations; and we do so in response to resolutions at the United Nations to which we are party.
§ Earl COWLEYMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the House cannot know whether the Government are taking all possible steps, unless we know what 782 those steps are? Will he therefore say what they are?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSOf course, my Lords; it is by constant consultation with the organisations to which these monies are paid, in the vast majority of cases United Nations organisations, on which of course we have representatives. That, I think, is a reasonably satisfactory way of checking the direction and disbursement of these monies.
§ Lord WADEMy Lords, will the noble Lord agree that in all these cases these are humanitarian causes that are being helped? Furthermore, will he agree that in cases of this type the persons in need in these areas of the world would very often not be helped at all, if it were not for movements and bodies such as those to which this Government have contributed?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the answer must be Yes to both points.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, is the Minister aware that many of us deeply welcome the statement he has made? Is it not quite clear from that statement, first, that these grants are made through United Nations organisations which have that responsibility; and, secondly, that the only instance when they are made to a political Party is for educational and technical assistance which would not take place unless these grants were made, and therefore could not be at the cost of extending their expenditure for military purposes?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, my noble friend refers to the one grant which is made to such a political organisation, which is SWAPO, and that is a grant of £35,000 for scholarships and other educational assistance. We should, of course, prefer to direct that grant to a Government, but at the moment there is no such Government in Namibia. We hope that there will be one, but in the meantime SWAPO is the recognised central organisation representing the Namibian people.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to say whether the Government receive regular reports on how these moneys are being spent and, if so, from what source they come?
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, as the Minister emphasised the assurance that these gifts were made only when it was certain that they would be used for peaceful purposes, but later admitted that it would be difficult to survey them—I use the word "survey" as "police" is disliked—may I ask him to indicate whether the amount to be given to Mozambique, which is admittedly a Marxist State and a foreign country, as was admitted in reply to a Question by the noble Earl, Lord Cowley, would fall under one of the categories he has just described, when put through the United Nations?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I do not think that the noble Lord quite caught the phrase I used. It is always possible, when we make grants for humanitarian purposes, that there may be misuse. To put it higher than that would be to tempt fate. But we take every possible step to check that this is not so, and we are pretty well satisfied that the measures which we take are effective. That brings me to the point made by my noble friend Lord Segal, which I very much take on board. I entirely agree with him. Perhaps we can have a word about this after Question Time. On the question of Mozambique, prior to independence we made a contribution of £300,000 to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees for the resettlement of refugees in Mozambique. We have not yet concluded an aid programme with the new Mozambique Government, but we shall presumably discuss that with them as soon as they have settled down after independence. The same applies to Angola, though a little further in the future.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, I must apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Barnby. I was not looking in his direction when I rose. May I ask my noble friend whether regular reports are received as to how these monies are being spent, and whether these reports come from the United Nations or from the organisations concerned?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I had it in mind to go into some detail with my noble friend afterwards, instead of dealing with all the steps and processes involved during Question Time. Briefly, it is through the United 784 Nations organisations concerned that we get reports, partly directly from our own representatives on those organisations, and partly from the published records and papers of the United Nations itself.
§ Lord DERWENTMy Lords, have we broken a record today? The first three Questions took 19 minutes yesterday, and today they have taken nearly 23 minutes.