EEC SOCIAL FUND GRANTS (Hansard, 7 July 1975)

§ Lord AVEBURY
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord JACQUES
My Lords, the Government make grants for the retraining and resettlement of workers. In appropriate cases they make applications to the EEC Social Fund for 50 per cent. of the grant. This avoids the uncertainty and delay in payment that could arise if a direct application were made. It also facilitates control of public expenditure. To advise organisations of the applications would give rise to false hopes as the Government are not prepared to pass on receipts from the Fund as additions to grants. The Fund will not give financial assistance in respect of an activity which is not already supported financially by a public authority.

§ Lord AVEBURY
My Lords, can the Minister tell me whether it is true, as claimed by the Sunday Times, that the Government have a legal obligation to pass on to the EEC Social Fund any application made by a voluntary organisation for assistance; and if they do not make applications on behalf of particular private bodies do they use the information provided by those bodies in sub- 578 mitting their blanket claim? In particular, is it true, as claimed by the Sunday Times, that no help has been made available from the Social Fund to the Industrial Therapy Organisation of Epsom, Surrey, and that the Government have not even told the EEC Social Fund of the existence of this project? Has the noble Lord read the allegations made in the Sunday Times and will he give a complete answer to them?

§ Lord JACQUES
My Lords, I think I should speak for half an hour if I were to reply wholly to that supplementary. First, I am not aware of any such legal obligation. Secondly, as I have already explained, the EEC Fund will not make grants to any activity which is not already supported financially by a public authority. That means that the initiative is with the United Kingdom Government. They must assess the position; they must make a grant. It seems to us to be sensible, since that initiative is placed with the United Kingdom Government, that they should decide how much the grant should be having regard to all the circumstances, and should then make a claim upon the EEC Fund. If a direct application were made, there would be uncertainty and delay.
So far as this organisation is concerned, the position as I understand it is that it is a fairly assessed grant to which the United Kingdom Government were committed, and in the interim period it is obvious that some of the claims we make will be in respect of grants to which we are committed. This is one of those to which we were committed and for which we made the 50 per cent. application. In 1973, 50 per cent. was received; in 1974, there were no receipts so far as that organisation was concerned, because there was very great pressure upon the Fund from other countries.

§ Lord AVEBURY
My Lords, in other words, the Minister is confirming that any applications made by the Government to the EEC Social Fund do not benefit the organisations on whose behalf those applications are made, but the money is simply deducted from the Treasury grants which would otherwise have been made. Would the noble Lord not agree that it is partly as a result of this method of making applications that the grants from the EEC Social Fund to British 579 projects have declined from 33 per cent. in 1973, to 25 per cent. in 1974?

§ Lord SLATER
My Lords, will my noble friend—

§ Lord JACQUES
My Lords, when the supplementary questions are so long, I need to answer them one at a time. Taking the latter part of that question, in the two years in which we have been members of the EEC we have received £50 million from the Fund. That is equal to 60 per cent. of the applications made and 23 per cent. of the whole budget, so that our system has not worked too badly.
In the second year, the amount we received increased. There was a decline in the percentage, but it was nothing like 33⅓ per cent. That decline in the percentage was not due to the reasons put forward by the Sunday Times and which are now being put forward by the noble Lord. It was due to two other reasons: first, increasing employment in the countries of the Community; and, secondly, the fact that we have been more active in this field of retraining than most other countries, and some of the other eight countries which were not so active were encouraged by the Social Fund. Consequently, in the second year, they began to make applications and that is the reason why our percentage slightly declined.

§ Lord CARRINGTON
My Lords, would it be in order to remind the noble Lord that we are having some questions and answers.

Several NOBLE LORDS
Both noble Lords.

§ Lord O'HAGAN
My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether it may be possible that the nature and detail of the British applications is part of the reason for the misunderstanding in this connection? Could he explain to your Lordships whether it is true that the British applications to the Social Fund tend to be more global and less specific than those submitted by other countries, so that the authorities in Brussels are sometimes uncertain as to the exact nature of the projects for which Her Majesty's Government are applying?

§ Lord JACQUES
My Lords, I am advised that each of the projects is dis- 580 cussed with our representatives, and as a result of those discussions, it is decided which shall be supported by the Social Fund from the limited funds available, and which shall not.

§ Lord SLATER
My Lords, in view of the replies of my noble friend, is it not correct to say that Her Majesty's Government are still seeking to retain the identity which they have had for many years with regard to retraining and grants? The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, who asked the original Question, ought to have known that as an ex-Member of another place.

§ Lord JACQUES
My Lords, if the United Kingdom Government have to take the initiative and decide whether a grant is possible, it seems entirely sensible that, being the authority on the spot, they should also decide the amount of grant.

Lord CAMPBELL of CROY
My Lords, while the Social Fund has financially assisted Government retraining schemes considerably over the past two years, has not the Fund also been ready to assist private schemes provided there was a Government grant towards them? Can the noble Lord give an assurance that there have been no opportunities missed for Britain through the Government neglecting to spread the necessary information about applications to private bodies?

§ Lord JACQUES
My Lords, in our view, nothing has been missed. There is a shortage of funds, and having regard to that we think we have done fairly well. Publicity is not easy, because before an organisation has any claim whatever upon the Social Fund it must be subject to a public grant in this country. We must limit that kind of advertising.

§ Baroness GAITSKELL
My Lords, can the Minister reassure us that we are better at such things as retraining than the other members of the EEC? The general impression from television and the other media is that they are far better at it than we are.

§ Lord JACQUES
My Lords, I can assure the noble Baroness that we are much better at retraining than some of the other countries in the EEC, which are doing very little work in this sphere 581 but have been encouraged by the Social Fund. Consequently there has been greater competition to get money from the Social Fund in 1974 than there was in 1973.

§ Lord AVEBURY
My Lords, am I to understand the noble Lord as saying, in answer to the third part of my question, that he would not explain publicly how individual organisations could make these applications to the Social Fund, because of the number of requests that that might generate? Is this what he and the Government mean by "open government"?

§ Lord JACQUES
My Lords, since the United Kingdom Government have to take the initiative and make a grant, it seems sensible that they should determine the amount of the grant and that they should be the body which claims upon EEC. They are the body on the spot.

§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE
My Lords, it seems that we shall sit until 10 o'clock this evening and we have had nearly 10 minutes on this one Question. The House is interested and concerned, but I think we have had enough.