§ Lord O'HAGANMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how far the United Kingdom's balance of payments deficit is a result of membership of the EEC.
§ Lord JACQUESMy Lords, I cannot add to my reply to the noble Lord on 5th December. As I said then, membership of the European Communities has probably affected the United Kingdom balance of payments in a number of different ways. It is not possible to quantify all of these, nor to separate their impact from that of a number of other factors which have also affected the balance.
§ Lord O'HAGANMy Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for that reply, but I cannot because he has not answered my Question. Will he give an undertaking that, even if he cannot do so to-day, Her Majesty's Government as a whole will answer this question before the British people are asked through the Referendum to decide on the membership of the Community?
§ Lord JACQUESMy Lords, I cannot possibly give such an undertaking.
§ Lord O'HAGANMy Lords, is the noble Lord saying that the British people are to be denied knowledge of the benefits or otherwise of membership of the Community before they are asked to decide?
§ Lord JACQUESMy Lords, as I said in my substantive Answer, it is not possible 562 to separate the effect of the various elements. There is, however, very strong evidence—and this is as far as I can go—that our adverse balance of payments with the EEC is due to two reasons and that they are exactly the same reasons as affect our balance of payments elsewhere. First and foremost, there has been an increase in world prices of food and raw materials which has been very much greater than the increase in prices of the manufactured goods which we export. Secondly, the conditions operating in our country have affected the balance. Here, I would remind the House that 12 months ago we were on a three-day week. Noble Lords may protest, but the fact is that we are comparing 1974 with 1973, and the three-day week is bound to be an element in that comparison.
The bulk of the deterioration in our trade balance with the other eight members of the Community has been very largely concentrated in a few commodity groups, principally food, which has been subject to the huge increase in world prices; fuels and plastics, which have been affected by higher oil prices; and iron and steel, in which there have been shortages in the United Kingdom. Those are the principal factors, but beyond that I could not possible go.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, does the noble Lord agree that the sad and net conclusion is that the adverse balance is a great deal larger because we went into the Common Market than it would have been had we not done so?
§ Lord JACQUESMy Lords, that is a matter of opinion based upon the information available. My own opinion—and I have gone into this most thoroughly—is that, if it is greater than it would have been, it is only marginally so.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that one argument put forward by the then Government when the matter was before this House was that it was imperative that your Lordships should forgo the historic delaying mission because it was essential to increase the flow of capital from Europe to Britain? Those of us who were, perhaps, more cautious pointed out that there might be a possibility—which has in fact come to pass—that the capital has gone from Great Britain—
§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Shepherd)My Lords, may I suggest to noble Lords opposite that they allow my noble friend to put his question to my noble friend. I feel that this chorus and the intervention of my noble friend are not getting us anywhere and I suggest that we allow him to put his question.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, I have not the slightest desire to hide behind the Leader of the House. The simple point is that I want the same rights as other Members of this House. It is a common practice not to put questions in an interrogative form if it does not suit the speaker to do so. Therefore, I shall not do so either.
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, I know there are occasions when some noble Lords, for one reason or another, do not quite follow the practice of your Lord-ships' House in putting supplementary questions. We have a degree of tolerance here. I can only say to my noble friend that he is a Parliamentarian of great experience, and therefore I would suggest that the latitude we give to some is one which he himself should not claim.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, in that case I respond to that plea and I put my question as simply as possible in interrogative form. Is my noble friend aware that the flow of capital from the Common Market into Great Britain which was forecast by the Opposition Bench at that time has, in fact, not turned out to be true, and that part of the economic difficulties of this country and its impoverishment in the investment market are because the British patriots, so ably and so copiously represented on the opposite Benches, have taken their chance and the capital is flowing from Britain to the Common Market?
§ Lord JACQUESMy Lords, I am so aware.
§ Lord RHODESMy Lords is it not a fact that if we had bought the same goods and services from countries other than those of the EEC, including the Commonwealth, the deficit would have been considerably larger?
§ Lord HANKEYMy Lords, in view of the Minister's reply, how does he explain the fact that the Minister of Trade ascribed such a large part of our deficit to our membership of Europe? I ask that because the Minister has just explained to us that it is impossible to quantify.
§ Lord JACQUESMy Lords, it is impossible to quantify. It is a matter of coming to a judgment on the information that is available. I have reached my judgment and have given it to the House quite honestly.
§ Lord POPPLEWELLMy Lords—
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, I think that some of my noble friends have been monopolising the questions. Perhaps my noble friend will allow one or two questions from the other side. I also hope that we can treat this matter with some expedition.
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, I want only to ask the noble Lord whether he can give the House an assurance that our membership of the Community has not been responsible for the increase in the price of food to which he referred?
§ Lord JACQUESMy Lords, I could not give that assurance. All I can do is repeat the opinion I have already given, that membership has had merely a marginal effect on the balance of payments. I could not go beyond that.
§ The Earl of ONSLOWMy Lords, is it not true that the price of food on the world market has gone up very much more than it has done in the EEC, and, consequent upon that, we have saved something like £300 million in our balance of payments by being in the EEC, as opposed to having to buy food, especially grain, from America and Canada?
§ Lord JACQUESMy Lords, I am not in a position to substantiate the figure which has been quoted.
§ Lord POPPLEWELLMy Lords, while the House probably appreciates that my noble friend cannot answer the question in full, may I ask whether it is possible for him to prepare some statistics to show what kind of trade is flowing between both sides of the Community, in so far as raw materials, timber and 565 food are concerned, in order that we can make a better assessment of the position?
§ Lord JACQUESMy Lords, I believe that that kind of analysis usually appears in the annual publications.
§ Lord GLADWYNMy Lords, will the noble Lord agree that the current deficit in our balance of payments with Europe could in no way be rectified by our withdrawal from the Community and by the resuscitation of the European Free Trade Area?
§ Lord JACQUESMy Lords, I think that is another question.