§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps have been and are being taken by them in conjunction with other civilised nations to deal with the continuing vicious criminal attacks in and on aeroplanes and in respect of other acts of terrorism.
307§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)My Lords, we are in constant touch with other Governments on these matters and Her Majesty's Government are doing everything in their power to take adequate measures to deal with the problem. Our own measures are kept under constant review. Noble Lords will have noted the very full Statements made in another place on 25th November 1974, and 13th January 1975.
Lord JANNERMy Lords, does my noble friend realise that although some international steps have been taken, they have obviously not been taken by the United Nations, one of whose Special Agencies has even taken in the PLO? In view of the fact that there are some 20 criminals at present in Egypt who have performed these acts of terrorism, including those who murdered the diplomats in Khartoum and those who were responsible for the destruction of the plane in Rome in which 31 people were killed, and in view of the fact that these criminals are going around freely in other countries, will my noble friend seek the assistance of other civilised nations to deal with the matter? Further, will he take steps either of insisting upon the extradition of these criminals to the land where they committed the crime, as now suggested even by the French pilots, or ensure that those lands which harbour them shall not be given the air facilities which they are abusing?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I agree with my noble friend that the key to this problem lies in the fullest international co-operation. I think that we have done at least as much as any other country in the various international convention meetings to improve, in so far as it has improved, the precautions for safety in the air. We are constantly seeking the opportunity for new initiatives. I have taken note of my noble friend's remarks about extradition.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, would my noble friend agree that unless we take stronger measures over these terrorists they will be laughing their way back to their own countries—as they have been doing—where an amnesty awaits them? In addition, oddly enough the 308 publicity attached to terrorism breeds more terrorism. Therefore it is very urgent that we should get together, for instance, with the French, who are making rather stronger noises about these matters than we are.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSI am not sure about who is "making stronger noises", my Lords. All I know is that this Government, and, indeed, the other authorities in this country who are concerned with this most important matter, are working very hard to achieve exactly what my noble friend Lady Gaitskell has suggested is the answer; namely, the fullest international co-operation. As to her second point, certainly I will bear that in mind and speak to my right honourable friend about it.
§ Lord SLATERMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that I would not for one moment, under such circumstances, take the view that the French are more alert to this position than we in this country? Furthermore, is my noble friend aware that information relative to the situation, so far as the action on this issue which has been taken by Her Majesty's Government is concerned, has received outside comment which has been very congratulatory, because they seek to obtain the best form of support towards outlawing these atrocious happenings which are taking place?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I can confirm what my noble friend Lord Slater said. There has been some commendatory reference to some of the steps which we have been able to take with regard to recent incidents in this country. For example, what we are doing now, both in regard to designation of major airports and the strict control which is imposed upon minor airports, is an action long overdue but one that has now been instigated. On the noble Lord's second point about what other countries are doing, we are in constant touch with them—not least the French—to see what we can learn from them and, possibly, what they might learn from us at the same time.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, may I ask whether my noble friend has observed that the term "terrorist" is becoming almost a mark of respectability, for example, at the United Nations where 309 terrorists are received with acclamation, even while armed with offensive weapons? Is he aware also that some ex-terrorists are appearing in this country in the guise of diplomats? Is he aware of these facts?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSNot in the way that my noble friend puts the point, my Lords! I would hesitate to accord to any terrorist, in any cause, the dignity of heroism to any extent. It is a fact that the arrangements by most, if not all, countries, as to the control of immigration needs to be examined carefully and constantly. These arrangements are being undertaken in this country. Certainly in the last few weeks we have made some progress in reviewing our provisions. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Trade will, any day now, receive a comprehensive report on what further can be done, both here and at overseas airports, to guard against the very dangers which my noble friend has mentioned.
Lord JANNERMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for some of the comments which he has made about this problem, may I ask whether it is not time that we attempted to get those nations whom I regard as civilised nations and describe as such to come together to see what can be done? Does my noble friend realise that it is no good going to the United Nations which has put aside for a whole year this issue of how to prevent terrorism? It did not even deal with it at the last Assembly. We must really look for support to similar nations like ourselves who respect good conduct and who are not prepared to succumb to violence.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the co-operation which is essential in this matter is obtainable from the countries that my noble friend has in mind. What remains to be done is to secure comprehensive international co-operation so that we bring in everybody, and practically every country has an airport or is engaged in civil aviation. This is not an easy matter to accomplish. I think it was this country which, at the Rome conference, made certain proposals which commended themselves to the countries that I believe my noble friend has in mind, but the proposals did not 310 commend themselves to the other countries.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, has the noble Lord seen the reports of the remarks of President Sadat that hi-jackers who flee to the Middle East should be returned to the countries where they committed their crimes? Would he agree that that suggestion is a distinct step forward?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSYes, indeed, my Lords, as was the universal condemnation by the Arab countries for what happened in Dubai. I have noted with agreement and pleasure what Mr. Sadat has said in the last couple of days.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, may I ask whether it is intended that these consultations shall go on indefinitely, or do the Government propose to set a time limit to them?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I do not think it would be wise to set a time limit to what is essentially a continuing search for an international solution to an international problem.
Lord HAWKEMy Lords, are Her Majesty's Government satisfied with the progress of their scientists in devising some method whereby terrorists can be put out of action without any harm to the crew or passengers of aircraft? It seems they have been studying such measures for a long time but have produced nothing so far.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, such an eminently attractive proposition is very much under consideration and examination.