HL Deb 23 January 1975 vol 356 cc217-20
Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask whether Her Majesty's Government have any information in their possession to indicate the existence of subversive organisations or groups, other than those associated with the Ulster situation, in the United Kingdom, and if so whether they are regarded as an immediate danger to our political system and way of life.

The MINISTER of STATE, HOME OFFICE (Lord Harris of Greenwich)

My Lords, there are a number of organisations and groups in the United Kingdom whose activities may include subversive activities. We do not believe that any of them constitute an immediate danger to our political system and way of life.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that Answer. Is he aware that recently in the course of a speech a noble Lord on the Cross-Benches made a statement, which was loudly acclaimed by noble Lords in various parts of your Lordships' House, to the effect that there exist in this country subversive organisations which constitute an immediate danger to our way of life? Is he also aware that on that occasion I described those remarks as being in the nature of extravagant language, and can my noble friend say whether the observations of the noble Lord who made that speech were justified?

Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH

My Lords, I think I have stated the Government's position on this matter. I did not have the good fortune to hear the speech to which my noble friend has just alluded, but as I indicated in my initial Answer, we do not think there is any immediate danger to our political system and way of life.

Lord AVEBURY

My Lords, if there is no other organisation apart from the IRA which is a threat to national security, how does it come about that the Home Secretary has recently exercised his powers under the Immigration Act 1971 for the first time, to give notice of deportation of an individual because of his supposed membership of certain organisations—not the IRA? Will the noble Lord consider whether it is consonant with the principles of natural justice that a person should be deported in this manner without being given details of the charges made against him, and without an opportunity of replying to those charges and being represented at a hearing open to the Press and public?

Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH

My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord will recognise that that is a rather different question. It would be impossible for me to comment on an individual case.

Lord JANNER

My Lords, would my noble friend say what investigations have been made of those organisations that are at the present time carrying out violent attacks on individuals and groups, with rifles and other weapons—organisations not directly connected with Ulster? Will he make a thorough investigation into the position so that our way of life will be properly protected?

Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH

My Lords, these matters to which my noble friend has referred are at the moment being investigated by the police.

Lord ORR-EWING

My Lords, in view of the assertion of the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, and the discussion with the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, during the debate just before Christmas, is it not in the interests of the whole House and the country that perhaps this offer to give names and "sources" of such organisations operating in this country should be explored, as the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, suggested? Perhaps we could have a full-scale debate on this subject at an early stage, so that the whole of it could be properly discussed. I suggest that it would perhaps be more appropriate here than in another place. It might be of tremendous importance to the industrial welfare and wellbeing of our country.

Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH

My Lords, I think that is a matter for the usual channels.

Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE

My Lords, will the noble Lord bear in mind that such a request as has come from my noble friend would meet with the full support of the Opposition in this House? Will he also bear in mind that it is all very well to take a relaxed view of subversive organisations, but that within the last week two attacks with automatic weapons have been made on London hotels? Does that not constitute a threat to our way of life?

Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH

My Lords, as I indicated, the police are investigating those questions at the moment. It is obviously impossible to know what organisations were involved until the miscreants have been detected.

Viscount MASSEREENE and FERRARD

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that a stitch in time saves nine?

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that I should also welcome the opportunity for a debate? But if there is to be a debate, instead of indulging in extravagant language and seeking to make our flesh creep, would it not be advisable that those who take part in it should state the facts which are beyond dispute and not indulge in exaggerations? Will he discuss with my noble friend the Leader of the House in order to ensure that an early debate shall take place, perhaps on the initiative of the Government themselves?

The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord SHEPHERD)

My Lords, perhaps I may intervene here, particularly in the light of what my noble friend and the noble and learned Lord have said. The noble and learned Lord sits as close to the usual channels as I do. He has been a Leader of your Lordships' House and is well aware that if a debate is thought necessary it can be arranged. A little bird whispered to me as I came into your Lordships' House that a debate is highly possible on a Motion that is to come from the Cross-Benches. If we are to have a debate of such a nature, I hope it will be of a constructive character and if there are certain facts that ought to be disclosed I trust that they will be disclosed.