§ 3.2 p.m.
§ Lord MONSONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the energy crisis, they consider reductions in rail fares for accompanied bicycles and accompanied pets desirable, so as to encourage holidaymakers to travel by rail rather than by road.
§ Lord MELCHETTMy Lords, as part of their measures to save energy the Government are opening discussions with local authorities and others, including the British Railways Board, to see how and in what ways further energy savings can be achieved. In preparing for these discussions the Railways Board will doubtless consider the noble Lord's suggestion.
§ LORD MONSONMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his very welcome reply, may I ask whether he would agree that since it costs exactly six times as much to convey a bicycle from London to Edinburgh as it does to take one from Paris to Marseilles, which is the greater distance, British Rail should come into line with Continental practice in this matter, thereby certainly generating an increase in traffic among students and others, as well as holidaymakers? This would have a consequent beneficial effect on petrol consumption. Secondly, would the noble Lord agree that the success of Motorail demonstrates that, more often than not, concessionary fares generate a profitable increase in traffic?
§ Lord MELCHETTMy Lords, as I have said, this is a matter for the British Railways Board. I am not aware how 115 much it costs to transport bicycles in France, but I should be surprised if it were six times as much as suggested. I understand that there is a maximum charge here of £3.50. As for concessionary fares, the noble Lord is right in saying they encourage traffic, and the British Railways Board have a large number of concessionary fares which have encouraged the use of the railways. Of course, if you take a pet or bicycle by train you are charged half the person's fare, so concessionary fares do help.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that this is not entirely a matter for the British Railways Board? The Government have power to give general directions to British Rail if they think that the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Monson, would help to save energy. Will the Government therefore give British Rail a general direction that bicycles accompanying passengers be carried free of charge altogether, thus saving the energy that would be wasted in discussion? Further, why not give British Rail a direction that they are also to provide bicycle parks at all the main line London stations?
§ Lord MELCHETTMy Lords, this is a matter for the British Railways Board. It is not the Government's job to intervene in the day-to-day running of the railways. If the Government were to give a direction on a specific matter like this they would be doing so.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, while disclosing yet another interest, not as an accompanied pet, but as an accompanied bicyclist, is the noble Lord aware that, making all due allowances for the day-to-day running of transport, this treatment of cycles by British Rail has been a longstanding grievance with all right-minded bicyclists throughout the country? Is it a fact that if they want people to travel by rail they should encourage the use of this relatively unsmelly, un-noisy, un-polluting method of personal transport?
§ Lord MELCHETTMy Lords, the noble and learned Lord may not be an 116 accompanied pet, but I am not sure that encouraging people to travel by bicycle would necessarily encourage them to travel by rail. But this is a matter for the Railways Board to decide.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, may I ask whether the noble Lord is aware that what I was trying to point out to him was that if people are to be encouraged to travel by rail they may want to use a bicycle at the other end as a means of personal transport? Does he agree that if I had a large suitcase, and put up my folding bicycle in my pyjamas and shirt and pretended that it was my personal luggage, I should be able to transport it for nothing?
§ Lord MELCHETTYes, my Lords, I do agree.
§ Lord POPPLEWELLMy Lords, in view of the rather wider question on which the noble and learned Lord expressed his opinion, about quietness and better service, would my noble friend agree that in his original Answer he said that general discussions with a view to preserving energy were taking place with the railways? Do these general discussions include matters such as the extension of electrification on railways and doing away with diesel oil and so saving our imports of oil?
§ Lord MELCHETTMy Lords, I am afraid that is another question.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, is it really the policy of the Government to encourage the conveyance by rail of accompanied pets? Is that fair to other rail users?
§ Lord MELCHETTMy Lords, it is not a policy of the Government: it is a matter for the British Railways Board.
§ Lord MONSONMy Lords, may I inform the noble Lord that the fare from London to Edinburgh for a bicycle is £3.40, rising on Sunday to £3.60. To take a bicycle from Paris to Marseilles costs 58p, so my figure indicating that London to Edinburgh was six times as expensive was accurate.